Does the Zis really need barrage?

It's target weak point and yes, it is needed AND normal for an ANTITANK gun. If Pak 40 will begin to shred infantry, would that be normal? That is the question you have to ask yourself.



It's called incendiary barrage and has nothing unusual in it. A balistic projectile load may be incendiary, nothing out of ordinary. If Mortar HT had ..ummm...let's say... "piercing armor hit" ability and would cut half of your T34 life at every hit, would you like that? Would it be "normal"?

except that a field gun being loaded with a HE explosive round is also completely nothing out of the ordinary, infact, the zis-3 was designed exactly for its ability to destroy enemy infantry, it was designed as a field gun. google zis-2 if you want an anti tank gun. Even if pak 40 could destroy infantry, that would also be realistic, things like the su-85 had HE rounds too you know.

Even if pak 40 could destroy infantry, that would also be realistic, things like the su-85 had HE rounds too you know.

Exactly. Then let's give to PAK40 also this ability, what do you say? You will say no, of course. When I was talking by what is normal or not, I was referring from game point of view not reality. In the game, these should be purpose made guns: AT purpose. As for making the game similar to reality..... Tiger would bounce every shot, T34 should cost 100 mp and 20 fuel, conscripts should cost zero, mg42 would shred anything in its site, artilery would tear to shreds every unit on the map and so on....

Exactly. Then let's give to PAK40 also this ability, what do you say? You will say no, of course. When I was talking by what is normal or not, I was referring from game point of view not reality. In the game, these should be purpose made guns: AT purpose. As for making the game similar to reality..... Tiger would bounce every shot, T34 should cost 100 mp and 20 fuel, conscripts should cost zero, mg42 would shred anything in its site, artilery would tear to shreds every unit on the map and so on....

Well, pak 40 gets target weakpoint which unfortunately is bugged (hopefully gets fixed) and has a 50% faster rate of fire. I think thats a fair tradeoff considering that 2 riflegrenades can do a much better job in clearing out a maxim or whatever and you will always have 2 grens around.


Now where do you get this information that tiger would bounce any shot? Even a measly t-34/76 could penetrate a tiger from 500m from the side. A T-34/85 or an su-85 could penetrate the front at 1000m. Now that's not what usually happened since tiger crews always angled their armor at 45 degrees to give them a sort of sloped armor effect. An is-2 and ISU-152 would punch trought tigers armor with ease. Unfortunately the t-34/76 costing 20 fuel is also wrong. The germans made almost the same amount of tanks in 1944 even tho their industries were getting bombed to hell. (Germany made 27000 in 44, soviets made 28000, granted, there were three fronts, but still much of the tanks were directed to the eastern front). If this game simulated reality, then soviets would also get things like su-100, ISU-122 both of which could destroy practically every german tank with ease (even the king tiger considering that the quality of german armour fell drastically in 44-45 because very critical reserves of certain materials were lost. Altho there is still no recorded case of king tigers hull armor getting pierced.

Now for the pak 40 destroying infantry, it makes sense, but in another way, it doesn't. HE shells required considerable space and considering that the PAK 40 is towed in this game, HE rounds were not a priority and the crew could not carry alot of HE rounds. Same with elephant and su-85. Why su-76 doesn't have HE shells for direct fire is beyond me...

Well, pak 40 gets target weakpoint which unfortunately is bugged (hopefully gets fixed) and has a 50% faster rate of fire. I think thats a fair tradeoff considering that 2 riflegrenades can do a much better job in clearing out a maxim or whatever and you will always have 2 grens around.


Now where do you get this information that tiger would bounce any shot? Even a measly t-34/76 could penetrate a tiger from 500m from the side. A T-34/85 or an su-85 could penetrate the front at 1000m. Now that's not what usually happened since tiger crews always angled their armor at 45 degrees to give them a sort of sloped armor effect. An is-2 and ISU-152 would punch trought tigers armor with ease. Unfortunately the t-34/76 costing 20 fuel is also wrong. The germans made almost the same amount of tanks in 1944 even tho their industries were getting bombed to hell. (Germany made 27000 in 44, soviets made 28000, granted, there were three fronts, but still much of the tanks were directed to the eastern front). If this game simulated reality, then soviets would also get things like su-100, ISU-122 both of which could destroy practically every german tank with ease (even the king tiger considering that the quality of german armour fell drastically in 44-45 because very critical reserves of certain materials were lost. Altho there is still no recorded case of king tigers hull armor getting pierced.

Now for the pak 40 destroying infantry, it makes sense, but in another way, it doesn't. HE shells required considerable space and considering that the PAK 40 is towed in this game, HE rounds were not a priority and the crew could not carry alot of HE rounds. Same with elephant and su-85. Why su-76 doesn't have HE shells for direct fire is beyond me...

I was exagerating a bit with that Tiger thing. I am aware that The Tiger's plate could be penetrated by T34/85, ISU or Su-85, but like you said, from different distances that generaly were under Tiger's range. A Tiger could destroy its target from 1500 - 2000 m. That's why the flat ground battles put german armor in advantage. Related to numbers, if we are to compare factions from 41 to 45, ratios were like 10 soviet tanks to 1 german. Dunno if in this statistic where also self propelled guns included, maybe not (I know germans had more self propelled - Stugs, Jagdpanzer, Jagdpanthers - than classic tanks).
Anyway, related to units abilities and performances they are different for sure and they should be. It's hard to keep things balanced in the meta with units having such different performances and abilities, but this is the goal. Having balance considering all that.

I hope I'm not the only one not struggling to grasp this concept..

Zis barrage is necessary because it is inferior to pak in every other way.

Zis barrage is great against static targets, against a squad of grenadiers (assuming they aren't just standing around) zis has no chance, and hence is not an effective single squad LMFAO killing machine.

Zis barrage has the same cost as two rifle nades (with the same effectiveness against mgs)

Zis having barrage is balanced.

I was exagerating a bit with that Tiger thing. I am aware that The Tiger's plate could be penetrated by T34/85, ISU or Su-85, but like you said, from different distances that generaly were under Tiger's range. A Tiger could destroy its target from 1500 - 2000 m. That's why the flat ground battles put german armor in advantage. Related to numbers, if we are to compare factions from 41 to 45, ratios were like 10 soviet tanks to 1 german. Dunno if in this statistic where also self propelled guns included, maybe not (I know germans had more self propelled - Stugs, Jagdpanzer, Jagdpanthers - than classic tanks).
Anyway, related to units abilities and performances they are different for sure and they should be. It's hard to keep things balanced in the meta with units having such different performances and abilities, but this is the goal. Having balance considering all that.

While that's generally true, however the 1 : 10 ratio is tottaly wrong. Like completely wrong. Soviets did have a slight numerical advantage,

Soviet German
6,590 5,200 - 41
24,446 9,300 - 42
24,089 19,800 - 43
28,963 27,300 - 44
15,400 ------ -45




Keep in mind that in 41-42 assault guns (stugs etc, were not included in german production numbers) and as you can see the production in tanks was only really different in 42 - showing a massive advantage to the soviets ( but still not really because assault guns are not included).

Keep in mind that the average tank engagement generally happened at around 1km.

If you cant counter a ZiS barrage, then your micro sucks ****. I see no one has a problem with su-76m barrage. How the hell is a curved, slow flying projectile that can only shoot in one spot a threat? Move LEFT or RIGHT, its like telling someone to get out of the way of a boulder by sidestepping it instead of running away from it. Just deal with it.

A boulder that rarely hits the target too. The only time the zis barrage gives me grief is when playing 3v3 or 4v4 compstomp matches. The ai will have 3 or 4 of them that instantly barrage my units when their spotted. Then I just run toward them and wipe out 1000 enemy manpower. Other than that barrage spam is only good for end game base rape when you float munitions.

If you cant counter a ZiS barrage, then your micro sucks ****. I see no one has a problem with su-76m barrage. How the hell is a curved, slow flying projectile that can only shoot in one spot a threat? Move LEFT or RIGHT, its like telling someone to get out of the way of a boulder by sidestepping it instead of running away from it. Just deal with it.

Not having a problem with it. Just stating that it's strange from game point of view o have a gun that serves well 2 purposes: AI and AT.
And dodging the barrage is not a problem for any mobile unit. For an mg though, it is: if first projectile kills the gunner, even if you hit the retreat buton, your squad has a good chance to die, because of the animation - next soldier will take gunner's place, then they will think a little bit, then they will pack the gun, then they will retreat. In all this time, ZIS will fire (due to the good ROF)at list 3 barrage shots.

Tbh, everything can kill a German MG these days with no problem. You dont even need a ZiS. :/

Tbh, everything can kill a German MG these days with no problem. You dont even need a ZiS. :/

I wouldn't mind if it would have a better supression. But this is Off topic.

Not having a problem with it. Just stating that it's strange from game point of view o have a gun that serves well 2 purposes: AI and AT.

And why would that be? Debates if ZiS-3 is AT gun or artillery gun go up to this day without an agreement as it served equally as both. Its also strange from game pov that FHT can reinforce, its strange that parked trucks magically generate income and so on and so forth.

Many of sov units offspec somewhere, because its needed from the gameplay pov, because they will never have as varied unit selection as ost does.

And dodging the barrage is not a problem for any mobile unit. For an mg though, it is: if first projectile kills the gunner, even if you hit the retreat buton, your squad has a good chance to die, because of the animation - next soldier will take gunner's place, then they will think a little bit, then they will pack the gun, then they will retreat. In all this time, ZIS will fire (due to the good ROF)at list 3 barrage shots.

Only "if" it kills the gunner. And that is a big if. Otherwise its just as easily as with any other squad, I've had numerous barrages where it did absolutely jack to MG that simply repositioned 3 steps to the side.

Only "if" it kills the gunner. And that is a big if. Otherwise its just as easily as with any other squad, I've had numerous barrages where it did absolutely jack to MG that simply repositioned 3 steps to the side.

Yep, as I allready said.

lol, 1 shell from zis barrage kills 11 gren/pe soldiers:



that was hilarious, though not on the receiving end I am sure.

That is what they are used for... to kill blobs... thats a base... it has all its units retreated to it... every attacking unit gets 10x more kills. Just stop, you are looking like a total moron.

lol, 1 shell from zis barrage kills 11 gren/pe soldiers:



that was hilarious, though not on the receiving end I am sure.

anything HE would of killed those. A t-34/76, an IS-2 , a PIV, a tiger, all of those would of done the same, even a mortar.

lol, 1 shell from zis barrage kills 11 gren/pe soldiers:

that was hilarious, though not on the receiving end I am sure.

Artillery ability effective against blob of infantry.

Who would ever have thought.

lol, 1 shell from zis barrage kills 11 gren/pe soldiers:



that was hilarious, though not on the receiving end I am sure.

ill admit, that made me chuckle.

God imagine the RAGE if the Zis lost barrage and was mirrord DPS with the Pak 40...the tears would be legendary. The rage quits would be historic.

The amount of players saying the Panther/Tiger/P4/Stug etc were usless would overload COH2.org.

Surely it would be the herald of the end times....

OMG it will be Zis gun spam into CALL INs!! OH WAIT.