Lets talk Pgrens.

Ok ill post it. Give me a min

10 min mark left VP

http://www.coh2.org/replay/18279/mr-someguys-request

I dont make shit up for future reference.

10 min mark left VP

http://www.coh2.org/replay/18279/mr-someguys-request

I dont make shit up for future reference.

logical they where attacking the HT instead of the pg's

for the first second or so. Either way the fact remains. They both got squad whiped without a single death.

He asked. I delivered. You can spin it all you want and say what if but that fact remains. Pgren whiped 2x PPSH scripts in a matter of seconds without taking a single loss.

Wouldnt have been a big deal to me if they would have been able to kill one model when the focus fired it. But they just did health damage.

for the first second or so. Either way the fact remains. They both got squad whiped without a single death.

He asked. I delivered. You can spin it all you want and say what if but that fact remains. Pgren whiped 2x PPSH scripts in a matter of seconds without taking a single loss.

Wouldnt have been a big deal to me if they would have been able to kill one model when the focus fired it. But they just did health damage.

Nope they attacked the HT. you can even see their guns pointing to the ht. i checked the replay twice .

Nope they attacked the HT. you can even see their guns pointing to the ht. i checked the replay twice .

So did I. How do you think the Pgrens took health damage? LOL they just got a cough due to cold?

So did I. How do you think the Pgrens took health damage? LOL they just got a cough due to cold?

They did after they hopped out of the HT. PG"S threw a bundle nade which you dodged but then you made a micro error and attacked the HT.

And then I focused the Pgrens I played it dude. I know where I clicked. They took health damage and whiped the 2x Scripts.

Its in the replay! lol

This isnt the first time something like this happened either. Last time was with no HT. This time just happened to be recent so I delivered the replay.

G43 Grens COULD NOT have done that period.

I watched it twice in the slowest motion, and it wasn't just "1 PG wipes 2 PPSh Cons" like you said.

1. It was 1PG and a Half-Track vs 2 PPSh Conscripts.
2. One squad was severely wounded from a bundle grenade.
3. At least one of the squads was fireing at the Half-Track the entire time.
4. The squad that died first was the one that was attacking the PG's, so the second one (attacking the Half-Track) did no further damage to the PG's as they were sprayed down.

Watch it in very slow motion, you can see the tracers going at the Half-Track and hear the metallic pinging.

I watched it twice in the slowest motion, and it wasn't just "1 PG wipes 2 PPSh Cons" like you said.

1. It was 1PG and a Half-Track vs 2 PPSh Conscripts.
2. One squad was severely wounded from a bundle grenade.
3. At least one of the squads was fireing at the Half-Track the entire time.
4. The squad that died first was the one that was attacking the PG's, so the second one (attacking the Half-Track) did no further damage to the PG's as they were sprayed down.

Watch it in very slow motion, you can see the tracers going at the Half-Track and hear the metallic pinging.

And did the Pgrens whipe both PPSH scripts? Yes. Did he do it in record time....yep. Could a G43 Gren do as well? No I think not. Bundle nade is also a Pgren ability so the health damage once again was done by the single Pgren squad.

I dont know why Jaigen has is getting all riled up. I still think Pgrens are too expensive.

Also this is not the first time i have lost two PPSH scripts to a single Pgren squad. Next time this happens I will post that replay here as well.

This goes back to my earlier arguments. They need no buffs. They are fine. They just need a cost reduction.

Cost reduction how much?Coz they are unsustainable at 40 reinforce.

Cost reduction how much?Coz they are unsustainable at 40 reinforce.

I really dont know. But you are right. If they were cheaper to upkeep, buy, and reinforce then their damage would be excellent and you could use them without fear of the massive MP bleed and they wouldnt be stupid OP body armor having supermen like they were.

As you see in this replay the guy I played used them well. They did an ass ton of damage very very very quickly. And they did it for free. Now weather or not it was not the optimal situation for my scripts is irrelevant imho. No other Ost squad could have done that so well.

Edit: In another section of the replay when I am microing my T70 they get behind my Maxim and whipe it out before I could react as well. That to me is a good squad. Cost is another matter.

Removing Rifle Grenade would be like removing Oorah, it's a key part of the unit's combat ability. I use that comparison because Grenadiers can use Rifle Grenades to stun a Maxim and try to crawl away, whereas Conscripts can evade an MG by Oorah'ing away. Alternative you could compare it to the Molotov, aka forced decrew / retreat of any support weapon within range.



Using the "Grens with Assault Rifles" comparison, you should look into why x4 MP 44's for 60m aren't worth it compared to x2 G43's for 60m. The reason is because less G43's allow for some range, but still give you an incentive to close in, while the MP 44's force you to close in but you can't close in too much or you lose, and if there's no cover nearby you automatically lose. The G43's are more versatile and effective, while the MP 44's are funneled into a role that the unit wielding them isn't great at.



CoH1 Panzer Grenadiers are not comparable at all to CoH2 Panzergrenadiers. CoH1 Panzer Grenadiers start off as the weakest core infantry but slowly become the strongest core infantry as you upgrade them.

Likewise vCoH Grenadiers are not comparable to CoH2 Grenadiers, and CoH1 Grenadiers were much stronger than CoH2 Grenadiers. CoH1 Grenadiers had higher health than any American or British unit in the game, and were more accurate as well. They came out generally when Americans researched BAR's, but could still counter them with just their Kar 98's, and could get 2 MG 42's to counter any Infantry the Americans or British could throw at them. CoH2's Grenadiers are much weaker in comparison.

Actually volks grenadiers were the weakest. To be honest the comparison I had made was based off how a Wehrmacht player used pg, snipers, mortars, smoke and flame pios to assault weapon support teams. All that was needed was some basic skills and tactics. Not clicking a grenadier button with no risk whatsoever. This was one of the reasons Wehrmacht players were considered good players. You had to have skill to win. You are desperately grasping for things that are not being discussed.

Once again pg work great at their role. One bundle nade will almost sqaud wipe an at gun, support team or infantry squad. The assault rifles will Finnish what's left in about a second. Duel shrecks will make waste to any armor you attack from the side or rear. If you attack frontally, well that's a player issue and it is not a balance issue. The killing power of pg easily are worth their cost. Every time you use pg squad correctly you get squad wipes or tank kills usually followed with some vet. Even if you lose two models that's a pretty good return on investment if you ask me.

If a lowly conscript squad can get a flank on a mg gun and toss a Molotov without Oorah, why is it so hard for ost players to get a pg squad to flank and toss a bundle nade? Heck you can even use the vet one sniper shot to stun a mg and then frontally attack with pg. One bundle nade will pay for pg in mp taken. Retreat and heal up and use your now vetted and more effective pg.

I have listed many ways to ues pg effectively but you keep saying how terrible they are. It is a complete lie and fabrication of the truth.....

Once again pg work great at their role. One bundle nade will almost sqaud wipe an at gun, support team or infantry squad. The assault rifles will Finnish what's left in about a second. Duel shrecks will make waste to any armor you attack from the side or rear. If you attack frontally, well that's a player issue and it is not a balance issue. The killing power of pg easily are worth their cost. Every time you use pg squad correctly you get squad wipes or tank kills usually followed with some vet. Even if you lose two models that's a pretty good return on investment if you ask me.

If a lowly conscript squad can get a flank on a mg gun and toss a Molotov without Oorah, why is it so hard for ost players to get a pg squad to flank and toss a bundle nade? Heck you can even use the vet one sniper shot to stun a mg and then frontally attack with pg. One bundle nade will pay for pg in mp taken. Retreat and heal up and use your now vetted and more effective pg.

I have listed many ways to ues pg effectively but you keep saying how terrible they are. It is a complete lie and fabrication of the truth.....

Lots of theory but little very little works in practice. Shreks as you say do not lay waste to armor. they work well with paks and tanks as additional support but do not expect shreks to work without additional AT.

Flanking is if you pull it of is nice. if you fail you lose a bucket load of mp. so why not send pio's with a flamer or assault grens to minimize the risk.

If you havent noticed the difference between the packup time and setup time of the mg42 and maxim is huge. a maxim can redeploy itself under 2 seconds but a mg42 need 5 seconds not to mention scripts have oorah which makes flanking much easier. Once again you show a disturbing lack on ingame knowledge.

and why blow 45 ammo on the sniper ability when a riflenade works just as well. and a lmg squad in cover works better against a maxim then a pg's does with less risk of suppression and manpower loss involved

Yeah, there's a lot of theory crafting going on here. Conscripts without Oorah? Why don't I just say the Grens don't use rifle grenades. It's a theory sandbox so I can say whatever I want and be valid, right?

Lots of theory but little very little works in practice. Shreks as you say do not lay waste to armor. they work well with paks and tanks as additional support but do not expect shreks to work without additional AT.

Flanking is if you pull it of is nice. if you fail you lose a bucket load of mp. so why not send pio's with a flamer or assault grens to minimize the risk.

If you havent noticed the difference between the packup time and setup time of the mg42 and maxim is huge. a maxim can redeploy itself under 2 seconds but a mg42 need 5 seconds not to mention scripts have oorah which makes flanking much easier. Once again you show a disturbing lack on ingame knowledge.

and why blow 45 ammo on the sniper ability when a riflenade works just as well. and a lmg squad in cover works better against a maxim then a pg's does with less risk of suppression and manpower loss involved

That is exactly my argument and thank you for finally figuring it out. Why do anything else than rifle nade. That is why I had listed rifle nade as an issue that currently impacts the use of pg.

As for the short pack up time on the mg, the cone is extremely small at close range and not an issue as the bundle nade will be tossed and wiping the squad before it scratches the pg.

You do not need Oorah to flank. It helps but you don't need it. Everyone flanked just fine vcoh. There was no Oorah.

As yes duel shreks into side or rear of a tank will devastate it. Chances are if you can get flank shot on the side or rear it will crit and you will be in position to deliver anther two shots if need be most times.

So yes I do agree with you grenadiers are very effective. And as a result they perform too well and the impact of pg may seem less because of this. However it does not mean pg are terrible or useless. They are grenadiers with a different load out that provide more flexibility and can be upgraded to the best at infantry in the game.

This is not theory.... This is the abc's and 123 's of coh tactics 101

That is exactly my argument and thank you for finally figuring it out. Why do anything else than rifle nade. That is why I had listed rifle nade as an issue that currently impacts the use of pg.

As for the short pack up time on the mg, the cone is extremely small at close range and not an issue as the bundle nade will be tossed and wiping the squad before it scratches the pg.

You do not need Oorah to flank. It helps but you don't need it. Everyone flanked just fine vcoh. There was no Oorah.

As yes duel shreks into side or rear of a tank will devastate it. Chances are if you can get flank shot on the side or rear it will crit and you will be in position to deliver anther two shots if need be most times.

So yes I do agree with you grenadiers are very effective. And as a result they perform too well and the impact of pg may seem less because of this. However it does not mean pg are terrible or useless. They are grenadiers with a different load out that provide more flexibility and can be upgraded to the best at infantry in the game.

This is not theory.... This is the abc's and 123 's of coh tactics 101

Ugh your trying to present yourself as some coh expert. but anybody that issues with riflenade oe the maxims small cone basically says he has micro issues. and since your completely derailing the thread im done talking about it.

And WTH do you mean with shrek crits? crits are determined by the health of the tank not what weapons are used.

Wehr wolf zug.

A username I created because I played over 7000 games as a Wehrmacht player in coh 1 and the thousands of hours invested in researching and reading about the Wehrmacht in ww2. I do not think I am an expert. You do not need to be an expert to understand basic concepts like flanking with a squad in the coh world.

On the contrary I am a staunch defender of the german factions. The previous shit patches caused an influx of no talent, no skill one click lemmings to flood the ost player base. Now that the german faction is getting closer to a respectable faction all the cry babies are having troubles coming to grips with reality. But we are not there yet. Just have to fix a few abilities that continue to hold players hands and give them get out of jail free cards. Aka rifle nades.

http://allworldwars.com/Small-Unit-Actions-During-German-Campaign-in-Russia.html#237

Here do some reading yourself and learn how real german company commanders actually used squad tactics. Also read the report about the peculiarities of the russian fighting force written by a general. It will help you understand the design concepts of the german and russian factions in the game.

Wehr wolf zug.

A username I created because I played over 7000 games as a Wehrmacht player in coh 1 and the thousands of hours invested in researching and reading about the Wehrmacht in ww2. I do not think I am an expert. You do not need to be an expert to understand basic concepts like flanking with a squad in the coh world.

On the contrary I am a staunch defender of the german factions. The previous shit patches caused an influx of no talent, no skill one click lemmings to flood the ost player base. Now that the german faction is getting closer to a respectable faction all the cry babies are having troubles coming to grips with reality. But we are not there yet. Just have to fix a few abilities that continue to hold players hands and give them get out of jail free cards. Aka rifle nades.

http://allworldwars.com/Small-Unit-Actions-During-German-Campaign-in-Russia.html#237

Here do some reading yourself and learn how real german company commanders actually used squad tactics. Also read the report about the peculiarities of the russian fighting force written by a general. It will help you understand the design concepts of the german and russian factions in the game.

Lets see