Lets talk Pgrens.

you know, the more we go forward, the more coh 2 org degrades into the official forums.
Now we have a bunch of people complaining about balance and insulting each other, calling each other fanboys providing zero information, having very few played games and have 5 digit ranks..



Luckily, relic understands this and only listens to people that have atleast some idea about the game.

The more you post the less time you have to improve your gameplay

Grenadiers with an LMG do far more than Panzergrenadiers could at the moment. Add in G43's and you don't need Panzergrenadiers at all. On the other hand, Assault Grenadiers make Panzergrenadiers completely redundant long before they're even available. Their only good use now is to be a Panzerschreck Carrier.

I think people are still using them like they would use shocks. Pgrens will beat conscripts in equal cover at all ranges, but you have to use cover wisely. Keep your pgrens at mid range against everything but support weapons. They are also useful for getting the drop on an unsuspecting capping squad while your opponent is microing elsewhere. Throwing a bundle nade and closing the gap will wipe a squad in seconds.

I really like how pgrens function now, as you actually have to be intelligent with them. Please, please, don't buff their armor again. We don't need anymore faceroll units.

A major detriment to pgrens' performance are the new explosive AOE profiles. The cost to reinforce is so high that getting another gren squad is often more efficient in the long run.

If and when the AOE profiles get toned down, pgrens should be able to fill their role as infantry glass canon, a much more interesting role than the right-click-to-win brutes they used to be.

Use them as Aerohank suggested. The man knows what he's talking about.

In my experiece, Shrek'd up PGrens when combined with an ostwind are a very powerful combo for the mid-game. I keep the Ostwind in front and let (preferebly two) shrek squads follow a safe distance behind. The ostwind wipes the floor with support teams. Knock out the mg(s) and let the Pgrens roll up to deal with zis if they can't be flanked.

The other advantage is if you can keep your pgrens far enough behind the ostwind that they aren't seen, The soviets think they can send a quick t-34 (or even better SU-85) to deal with the ostwind. suprise shrecks make quick work of either.

Stop comparing Pgrens with Shocks. Every time you do, a part of your brain atrophies.

Pgrens still have excellent DPS at all ranges, use them for flanking weapon teams or infantry-based AT vs. medium tanks.

They might need a slight cost drop but no more than that.

Katitof, thanks for "correcting" my posts, but I have my own experience. For me, they are not that dangerous.

Chuss

I think people are still using them like they would use shocks. Pgrens will beat conscripts in equal cover at all ranges, but you have to use cover wisely. Keep your pgrens at mid range against everything but support weapons. They are also useful for getting the drop on an unsuspecting capping squad while your opponent is microing elsewhere. Throwing a bundle nade and closing the gap will wipe a squad in seconds.

I really like how pgrens function now, as you actually have to be intelligent with them. Please, please, don't buff their armor again. We don't need anymore faceroll units.

I can do the exact same thing with normal Grenadiers for way less cost. That's the problem.

I can do the exact same thing with normal Grenadiers for way less cost. That's the problem.

No you can't because if conscripts close the gap on your grens you will likely lose the engagement, this is not the case with pgrens. They also lack a close range grenade that can force squad wipes, and they are not effective at dealing damage on the move. As strategos said, their reinforcement cost makes them a liability due to mines, tank shells, mortar rounds (anything that does aoe damage). In order to get anywhere close to the damage output of a pgren squad, you have to shell out 60 munitions for an lmg, and even then they deal damage in a different way.

I'm not contesting that grens are a safer, more cost effective option than pgrens. I'm saying that despite their shortcomings, they are still quite useful in certain situations.

In my opinion the PzGrens are a typical victim of see-saw balancing y Relic. OP then nerf.

I appreciate this is easy for me to say, as I'm not an expert or anything. *But* the Ostheer *deserve* a decent close-combat infantry unit on a par with (but different from) Shocks.

As it is, they're too squishy and I can't accept this "use them at flanking or at range" answer. Grens are for range with MG42s. Pios aren't infantry (although they had that hilarious day in the sun as close combat troops). What is the answer for Ost close combat infantry? There isn't one.

I play both factions. I like them equally. Please check my scorecard (don't laugh too much at rankings) but it seems to me that the omission of a decent CC unit for Ost is simply obtuse.

Pgrens punish charging soviet infantry more than grens do. That's what you use them for.

Read this thread, stopped using pzgren, buyed G43 and a Pak, won 4 games in a row.

Btw, pioneers are far more cost efficient when close combat pinned inf

No you can't because if conscripts close the gap on your grens you will likely lose the engagement, this is not the case with pgrens. They also lack a close range grenade that can force squad wipes, and they are not effective at dealing damage on the move. As strategos said, their reinforcement cost makes them a liability due to mines, tank shells, mortar rounds (anything that does aoe damage). In order to get anywhere close to the damage output of a pgren squad, you have to shell out 60 munitions for an lmg, and even then they deal damage in a different way.

I'm not contesting that grens are a safer, more cost effective option than pgrens. I'm saying that despite their shortcomings, they are still quite useful in certain situations.

I'd rather invest ammo in an lmg instead of using it for bundles. And what's the point of dealing damage on the move when they get murdered the second they leave cover?

The only reason for me to get pgrens is when I can't/don't want to invest in another lmg gren.

Pgrens punish charging soviet infantry more than grens do. That's what you use them for.

Fair enough, but a specialist infantry unit that excels at short - medium range *defence* ?

ORLY?

Seems a bit niche. CC infantry are meant to be aggressive, not sit and wait for Ivan to run into his iron sights.

Grens have trouble pushing because their DPS is not good on the move and conscripts can close in while the grens are moving. If you have a pgren in your push, conscripts cannot run in. So you can use them offensively by allowing your grens and support weapons to move forward safely.

I'd rather invest ammo in an lmg instead of using it for bundles. And what's the point of dealing damage on the move when they get murdered the second they leave cover?

The only reason for me to get pgrens is when I can't/don't want to invest in another lmg gren.

I'm not suggesting you use bundle nades at every engagement, I only use bundles when I have a good chance of wiping a squad.

You could make the same argument that you should invest your ammo in an LMG rather than a couple of rifle nades, that doesn't mean that a rifle grenade doesn't have its uses. Generally speaking, an LMG is going to give you a better return on your investment in the long run than both rifle nades and bundle nades, but if you have the chance to wipe a squad with a well placed grenade that is invaluable.

I think you and I agree that pgrens are a bit niche at the moment, but I don't want to see them turned into terminator squads again. I like their role as a mid range glass cannon. They punish bad play extremely hard by doing tons of dps at mid and close range. I think their issue lies more with the leathality of AOE damage which exacerbates their reinforcement cost.

@ Keitel shrecks aren't meant to be relied on as your primary AT, but they are really useful for supplementing your paks as they are much more mobile and can punish flanks.

Grens have trouble pushing because their DPS is not good on the move and conscripts can close in while the grens are moving. If you have a pgren in your push, conscripts cannot run in. So you can use them offensively by allowing your grens and support weapons to move forward safely.

This.

I use Pgrens to put Soviet player in the damned if you do damned if you dont position. My LMGs will LOL at range so go ahead and close in OOOPPPS Pgrens.....

A slow Push with LMGs backing up Pgrens is hard to deal with. I just slaughtered a Script to ST spammer on Stalingrad of all places with this. STs couldnt do a thing. The range drop off was too hard and by the time they charged in the Pgrens worked them over hard core.

They arent STs as said above. They fill a DPS Gap that LMG grens have. That being said they could stand to be cheaper to reinforce imho. But they are bar none the highest damage dealer over more ranges than other squads. Only chance to beat them one on one is with a full health STs squad under 8 Meters. And if your smart with the Pgrens thats just not going to happen.

I think you and I agree that pgrens are a bit niche at the moment, but I don't want to see them turned into terminator squads again. I like their role as a mid range glass cannon. They punish bad play extremely hard by doing tons of dps at mid and close range. I think their issue lies more with the leathality of AOE damage which exacerbates their reinforcement cost.

You are right, but unlike you, I don't like their current role.

I do not know if Pgrens use the same "movement mechanic" as grenadiers do because of some weird reason I rarely ever lose one pgrenmodel at a time but always at least two at once.

I lost my small streak going all in fuel Soviet Industry because the enemy spammed 5 panzergrenadiers, all with schrecks. Not having both muni for half of the game was a big mistake...