Minor german issues.

So i noticed a few German problems when im not playing typical wait for the elephant or tiger strategy and noticed that some German units need tweaking.

P4

Still has a ridiculous scatter of 9.5. now this was implemented to make the battle between the old t-34 and the p4 less lopsided and makes the p4 an AT flavoured tank compared to the t-34 AI. But the recent buffs to the t-34 makes both units more or less equal and i have seen a single t-34 winning from a single p4. The scatter is no linger needed and can be brought down to 5.

stug

The stug while quite good in its current form no longer has the AT it packed in the previous patches. and this leaves something of a gap as in 1vs1 games getting a panther out is quite difficult. And yet you need a tank to counter the heavier soviet tanks like the kv1 or the t-34-85.
I propose that the stug AI capability is removed and its penetration power is increased by 40-50

Panzergrens

reduce the cost to 320 and give once again 100% FOTM will fix their problems.

Panther (im going to get a lot of flak for this)

The poor thing got hit a by triple nerf(some where needed however). first its hp got reduced then a fuel cost increase but the most important (indirect) nerf is that all soviet generalist armor got increased AT capability making this tank in its current form ineffective as more and more german players go for the tiger and elephant for heavy AT duty. 175 fuel is to much and need to be reduced back to 145 . i also suggest that its firepower is increased by decreasing 1.5 second to its cooldown.

P4 scatter change was put in place because P4 obliterated infantry as well as tanks, there was absolutely no reason to get OStwind or StuG, now each have their own + and - and I see you have decided to completely ignore huge pintle MG buff, which makes it much better at AI.

About StuG, it got cost reduction and considerable buff against infantry. It still have better AT DPS then P4, and getting it together with P4 is a good idea. It costs 80 fuel, 5 more then T-70 and SU-76, don't expect it to be effective against heavy armor, because its clearly not what it is intended to do. Against med armor its only slightly less effective then it was.

Pgrens are not assault infantry, they are clearly not meant to be as PQ said.
Try using them as intended.

Panther deserves some fuel cost decrease, but thats it, its fine stat-wise now.

-PG's should have their armor back (come on, its assault unit, they should have possibility to close up, at the moment they die like a flies and good only for shreks)
-Panther should have its 900 HP back (it was nerfed to 800)
-Elefant and isu-152 should have range reduce to 80.
-Isu-152 AI capabilities should be nerfed a lot (too much squad wiping potential)
-Soviets mines should be nerfed. German AI mines is pretty fine due to its signs. Teller mine should be fixed (there is small chance when its not trigger)
-FoW should be removed while watching the BF after game

Everything else is just fine. Give us those changed and the balance will be perfect (and ruined again after WA arrive L

PG is a joke comparing to, fal.... well, (I shouldn't say about it), zero value, period.

Panther and werfers, are useless.

P4 doesn't worth getting in this meta, StuG and Pak can do this job 10x better.

PG is a joke comparing to, fal.... well, (I shouldn't say about it), zero value, period.

Panther and werfers, are useless.

P4 doesn't worth getting in this meta, StuG and Pak can do this job 10x better.

Well, on a map like stalingrad, getting a stug is suicide.

P4 scatter change was put in place because P4 obliterated infantry as well as tanks, there was absolutely no reason to get OStwind or StuG, now each have their own + and - and I see you have decided to completely ignore huge pintle MG buff, which makes it much better at AI.

Scatter does not automatically turn a unit less viable. after the nerf the p4 still did a number to infantry and t-34's nothing changed. So you argument really doesn't make any sense.

Back then the p4 flat out won against the t-34 and the other main tank of the soviets was the su-85 which required flanking. Their was no need for the stug safe for the kv1 and is-2. and the ostwind is awesome but very hefty investment.

and the mg42 buff. yeah its nice it also cost 50 ammo. even so the t-34 is still a better AI tank because it needs far less shots to kill a gren squad,

i want the p4 be better at the ai front since the t-34 received buffs that made it more or less equal in at.

About StuG, it got cost reduction and considerable buff against infantry. It still have better AT DPS then P4, and getting it together with P4 is a good idea. It costs 80 fuel, 5 more then T-70 and SU-76, don't expect it to be effective against heavy armor, because its clearly not what it is intended to do. Against med armor its only slightly less effective then it was.

Thats nice but you dont address my point. The germans already have a medium generalist they dont need another. Once again how are the germans going to fill their dedicated anti heavy tank in tier 3 without a tiger or elephant.

Pgrens are not assault infantry, they are clearly not meant to be as PQ said.
Try using them as intended.

No they are supposed to be used as flankers and they suck balls at it. standing in cover and shooting at stuff is something lmg42 grens do way better.

Panther deserves some fuel cost decrease, but thats it, its fine stat-wise now.

you give no arguments . in what way is it fine ? because currently the panther is not even suited in taking out t-34's.

Katitof, are you paid to roam in the forum, bashing everyone who's trying to tell that this game need adjustments ? Your clearly lack manners in terms of putting arguments on the table, instead of being peremptory like this.

Dual P4s w/wo spotting scopes is still very good. They don't need an AI buff. They can still be used as good flankers, especially at vet 2.

I dont know how PGrens are intended by Relic, but they are a manpower drain if you use them as assault infantry/core infantry. I think they suite the role of "special forces", they can do a lot of damage if well placed.

Not only does the panther need a price decrease, but heavy tanks need to require T4. It makes both options viable; heavy tanks or advanced panthers.

Katitof, are you paid to roam in the forum, bashing everyone who's trying to tell that this game need adjustments ? Your clearly lack manners in terms of putting arguments on the table, instead of being peremptory like this.

I will just smile at you and turn around.
Apparently you can't read properly.

I've given elaborated answer to his claims with explanation on why he is wrong on most of his points.
If you think this is "bashing" or "lack of manners in term of putting arguments", then you probably have read someone else's post, because it clearly do not apply to the one in this very thread.

Dual P4s w/wo spotting scopes is still very good. They don't need an AI buff. They can still be used as good flankers, especially at vet 2.

They cannot be used as flankers as their rather insane scatter on the move makes them miss far to often even at point blank range.

I've given elaborated answer to his claims with explanation on why he is wrong on most of his points.

Dont make me laugh. as usual you don't give good arguments to back up your opinions or once again you say l2p. not to mention the arguments you do give are false or are strawmen.

Dont make me laugh. as usual you don't give good arguments to back up your opinions or once again you say l2p. not to mention the arguments you do give are false or are strawmen.

And we have a classic here.

You can't even reply to what I've written, mr. red shirt guy.

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Like VCOH, I personally field double or triple Stug III Gs and go Tigers. A pair of stugs can knock out a Zis gun in 2-3 shots and have good AI.

Tigers are OP like the ISU, and have a lot of use.

I ignore T4 (Panther too expensive) and usually do not get ostwind or p4.

Panzergrens are a bit too expensive.

The Elbe day patch has made it necessary for the Germans to buy At guns just like the Soviets.

So i noticed a few German problems when im not playing typical wait for the elephant or tiger strategy and noticed that some German units need tweaking.

P4

Still has a ridiculous scatter of 9.5. now this was implemented to make the battle between the old t-34 and the p4 less lopsided and makes the p4 an AT flavoured tank compared to the t-34 AI. But the recent buffs to the t-34 makes both units more or less equal and i have seen a single t-34 winning from a single p4. The scatter is no linger needed and can be brought down to 5.

stug

The stug while quite good in its current form no longer has the AT it packed in the previous patches. and this leaves something of a gap as in 1vs1 games getting a panther out is quite difficult. And yet you need a tank to counter the heavier soviet tanks like the kv1 or the t-34-85.
I propose that the stug AI capability is removed and its penetration power is increased by 40-50

Panzergrens

reduce the cost to 320 and give once again 100% FOTM will fix their problems.

Panther (im going to get a lot of flak for this)

The poor thing got hit a by triple nerf(some where needed however). first its hp got reduced then a fuel cost increase but the most important (indirect) nerf is that all soviet generalist armor got increased AT capability making this tank in its current form ineffective as more and more german players go for the tiger and elephant for heavy AT duty. 175 fuel is to much and need to be reduced back to 145 . i also suggest that its firepower is increased by decreasing 1.5 second to its cooldown.

I thought armor got nerfed. :\

Scatter does not automatically turn a unit less viable. after the nerf the p4 still did a number to infantry and t-34's nothing changed. So you argument really doesn't make any sense.

Back then the p4 flat out won against the t-34 and the other main tank of the soviets was the su-85 which required flanking. Their was no need for the stug safe for the kv1 and is-2. and the ostwind is awesome but very hefty investment.

and the mg42 buff. yeah its nice it also cost 50 ammo. even so the t-34 is still a better AI tank because it needs far less shots to kill a gren squad,

i want the p4 be better at the ai front since the t-34 received buffs that made it more or less equal in at.



Thats nice but you dont address my point. The germans already have a medium generalist they dont need another. Once again how are the germans going to fill their dedicated anti heavy tank in tier 3 without a tiger or elephant.




No they are supposed to be used as flankers and they suck balls at it. standing in cover and shooting at stuff is something lmg42 grens do way better.



you give no arguments . in what way is it fine ? because currently the panther is not even suited in taking out t-34's.

So you're saying a single t34 beats a panther? I call bullshit on that man.

1- P4 are fine. Both AT and AI (when upgraded).

2- While i prefer Stug being more AT than AI, you just need to adapt to their new role/cost. Get more paks.

3- PGs: i would try going for a 320mp / 40mp to reinforce

4- The panthers are not cost effective. And T4 in general is not appealing. (Brumbear is way too niche and Panzerwerfer -Katys a bit less- takes quite the time to pay for itself)

Try to get 2 Panthers vs getting 2 Tigers.

Panthers 350 + 60 + 30 = 440 fuel and 1340mp (980mp + 200 + 160mp)
Tigers: 460 fuel + 1280mp

And i didn´t even add Tech2, so that would add 200mp + 55 fuel.

A T34 spam is going to drain and at the same time with the meta of call ins you are at a disadvantage. 1v1 T4 was niche, now even on 2v2 is even more strange to see.

I woulnd´t say its only a problem of T4 rather than the "call in meta" in general.

1- P4 are fine. Both AT and AI (when upgraded).

They are not reliable and tend to miss far to often on the move making them unreliable at. and to be honest why should they ave 9.5 scatter? compared to everybody's 5

2- While i prefer Stug being more AT than AI, you just need to adapt to their new role/cost. Get more paks.

or get more tigers. this is the issue right here, that the German player is basically forced into tiger doctrine or elephant doctrine.

3- PGs: i would try going for a 320mp / 40mp to reinforce

They do not have the durability to be assault troops and they do not have the dps (while on the move) to be flankers . the only are useful staying in cover but that is something that the gren with a lmg does better. giving them back their 100 % form would fix a lot of problems.

I agree PGs are not great atm, but before they get a buff, Russian support teams should be fixed. Right now you can't even retreat a Maxim from a PG surprise cause the guy carrying the maxim always dies, making the full squad stop, and the process repeating. I never had any problems with retreating an MG42.

Also, T34s absolutely cannot win from a Panzer IV. That's just bullshit. Besides, a pak is much better at countering armor than a ZiS. I really don't understand why you're saying it's so hard to counter Russian armor when playing the Germans. I can see Russian infantry being a problem, but I've hardly ever had a problem with dealing with Russian tanks (apart from the ISU of course).

They cannot be used as flankers as their rather insane scatter on the move makes them miss far to often even at point blank range.

No, you can't just circle strafe the whole time. There are moments to stop, shoot, move.

I was talking about tank vs tank anyway, there is no problem with "scatter" there.

Against inf, you just have to kite, stop, shoot, kite, alongside with the rest of your army.

- P4..they are fine... i guess...
- Stug is ok....
- Ele plus ISU range reduction +1
- ISU AI capabilities... just insane...
- Soviet mines nerf - for sure...
- Poor Panther....
- Poor Pgrenadiers....

Panther, I can't even begin to tell how useless it is, something must be done, at list decrease its costs. It costs a fortune and it's sensitive like a flower. I want a war machine on the line, not a luxury automobile...

I lough at arguments like "PzGrenadiers shouldn't be used as assault troops". Why do they have ASSAULT AUTOMATIC rifles? Huh? More than this, why are soviets allowed to have crack assault troops like shocks in several doctrines and germans have not? Just AG in ONE doctrine....What am I supposed to do with germans, just duck and lie in a corner waiting for enemy to do a mistake so I can push him a little?