Soviet Support team or Why would Soviets use combined arms?

Hello all,

So the hot topic these days seems to be the Soviet slight early game edge and things like mines and ISU/Elephant blah blah blah and there are a million threads on these subjects.

But what I haven't seen YET is a thread about how the Infantry Lethality effects soviet support teams surviability.

Since the changes Osts DPS is designed to kill 6 men in the same time as it takes Soviet to kill 4 (roughly cover and range dependant).

This means that with the 25% damage boost to support teams Ost can kill them even faster still.

Ever see what happens when a Pgren gets behind a Zis or a Maxim this patch for example? Its a LOL slaughterfest of biblical proportions.

Now back in the day the reason Soviet support teams were given such abysmal ROF is due to the fact that they had superior surviability and nasty nasty vet 1 abilities (mortar for example)

But alot has changed since them there days. For example Paks recieved target weak point at vet 1. Does this mean the Pak should shoot slower than the Zis? OF COURSE NOT!

So why do we still have such abysmal ROF on the Soviet Mortar? I get the 4 man squad thing but Precsion strike is not at all what it used to be. It feels more like a long range rifle nade more than an OMG Squad ending ability that would then require the Mortar to be balanced with such a piss poor ROF.

Same can be said for the Zis. Is barrage really that great to have such a HUGE ROF difference? I dont think so.

Maxims well thats a touchy subject. They can be spammed to great effect as everybody knows but they arent really good at doing MG things. Not to mention the good old WOOPS I DIED AND DROPPED THE MAXIM infinite loop....

I feel strongly that some love needs to be given to soviet T2 to put it on a more level playing field to Osts support weapons now that they cant take punishment like they used too.

Now I dont mean that they should be as GOOD but maybe cut the current difference in half when it comes to ROF on the Zis and more importantly the absolutely worthless mortar.

I would like to see Soviet combined arms equally as good as the Germans when used not a pail comparison which i feel it currently is.

The soviet mortar is probably the worst piece of equipment in the game. Building a soviet mortar is like picking up a dropped PTRS with a panzergrenadier squad: it's a waste. The only way to make the 82mm mortar decent is by sticking it next to a foreward HQ.

On other soviet support weapons:
-120mm is good.
-Zis3 is good in my opinion, it's not really an AT gun but more of a field gun with some cool abilities.
-45mm AT gun could use a higher close-mid range penetration with a steep drop off. This way it could be of minor use later on in the game as a flanking AT gun that you need to use aggressively.
-Maxim is too good when spammed, but just right when used in combined arms.
-DHSK.. haven't seen much use of this unit. Can't really say anything about it.

I want an AT gun not a muni synch wannabe mortar personally. I dont think the Zis is good. I think the Pak is GOOD. The Zis is "Better than nothing". And personally I like the 57MM better against Medium armor because it vets really fast hitting it. And at vet with its ROF its pretty damn good imho. Well at least for what it costs.

You forgot about the Maxim WOOPS I DROPPED THE GUN loop. That needs to be fixed. And its not as good of an MG really. I think Mg I think Area Denial support weapon that controls blobs. The Maxim doesnt do this really. But hey I can LIVE with it once they fix the damn I DROPPED IT slaughterfest.

Edit: I would say the 120MM is good at Vet 1 and above. Before that its just MEH for what it costs. The Mortar HT is so much better of an option when it comes to doctrinal indirect fire.

I think that the Zis (thanks to speed increase) is fine but it falters against the improved AI of the Tiger (which kills 1 or 2 entities per shot)- Two Zis guns ambushing the Tiger will be destroyed by the Tiger with a few rounds. This makes taking on a tiger a combined arms show.

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You forgot about the Maxim WOOPS I DROPPED THE GUN loop. That needs to be fixed. And its not as good of an MG really. I think Mg I think Area Denial support weapon that controls blobs. The Maxim doesnt do this really. But hey I can LIVE with it once they fix the damn I DROPPED IT slaughterfest.

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i really dont' understand this too. can't they just pick that shit up? i also hate when you want to pull them back a little, they have to revolve around the centre(where the maxim was) and walk around in a circle to reposition. can i just have a tri-pod plz?

Totally disagree about the soviet mortar being worthless.

It works like this.

German mortar is much more effective as a "mortar" as in its accurate and it is reliable to get hits against other "set up" weapons and stationary infantry.

Soviet mortar is much more effective as a counter mortar. 1-on-1 soviet mortar nearly always beats german mortar, once soviet mortar reaches vet1 - forget it about. All german mortars are target practice.

Not to mention, mortar smoke fits better into soviet's overall "offensive" posture. Smoke is a much underused and very effective tool - especially for the soviets.

It's kinda like the german/soviet sniper relationship. German sniper is better as a "sniper" vs regular infantry, but loses in duels.

When I use industry I usually go for 2 engineers and 2 maxims then a mortar and at gun. Sometimes I get a third maxim by accident but I make it useful.

Bias everywhere, while I played the camping style with Soviet there is not much difference with the German.

Maxim instant suppression making the target so easy to pick off my 82mm or T34 76.

Zis vetted very fast, and vetted mean fast ROF, with one click tracking maphack making it arguable better than Pak in some scene. Cloaked Zis with barrage is extreme nasty.

Precise strike of 82 and 120mm is the most LAMO I win button. See any German support weapon? Wipe it in one click. Even Pak43 LAMO, did it 3 days ago.

I don't use Soviet sniper because I don't want to be an asshole.

Totally disagree about the soviet mortar being worthless.

It works like this.

German mortar is much more effective as a "mortar" as in its accurate and it is reliable to get hits against other "set up" weapons and stationary infantry.

Soviet mortar is much more effective as a counter mortar. 1-on-1 soviet mortar nearly always beats german mortar, once soviet mortar reaches vet1 - forget it about. All german mortars are target practice.

Not to mention, mortar smoke fits better into soviet's overall "offensive" posture. Smoke is a much underused and very effective tool - especially for the soviets.

It's kinda like the german/soviet sniper relationship. German sniper is better as a "sniper" vs regular infantry, but loses in duels.

Wow your the only one. Prec strike is not at all what it used to be. It won't kill a full health squad any longer. And a reload of what is it 7.4 vs 2.4? I always lose that battle. I mean they aren't even in the same universe. 82 is complete trash. Oorah conscripts do a much better job countering osts mortar.

I don't even think osts sniper fires that much faster than the soviet sniper percentage wise.

Bias everywhere, while I played the camping style with Soviet there is not much difference with the German.

Maxim instant suppression making the target so easy to pick off my 82mm or T34 76.

Zis vetted very fast, and vetted mean fast ROF, with one click tracking maphack making it arguable better than Pak in some scene. Cloaked Zis with barrage is extreme nasty.

Precise strike of 82 and 120mm is the most LAMO I win button. See any German support weapon? Wipe it in one click.

I don't use Soviet sniper because I don't want to be an asshole.

This is dated. Show me one replay current patch if the 82 mm killing a full health support team. You won't because it can't anymore. Mines are a better use of muni for getting whipes. 120 mm can. But show me your highest number of kills per match and I guarantee I can get a ton more when I use the mortar HT. But I am sure you know this.

The Zis doesn't vet any faster than the pak and the paks DPS goes up with vet as well. If barrage was that awesome Ost players would covet the zis as much as soviet players want to capture a pak. There is no comparison AT wise and the survivability is no longer an excuse as noted above. It is not uncommon for Ost players to have an effective combined arms army. It is for soviets. Maybe a maxim in a match or a zis since any AT is better than none. But con spam or guards sniper are much much more rewarding.

You can't squad wipe a squad with precision strike just because the squad member are separated, damage-wise the shell can kill whether the guys are full health or not. For German support weapon, there are almost 3 members standing very close together, all you have to do to L2P your mouse more precise.

There is already an unfairness of squad members, more bullshit while Soviet capture German weapons and fill it with 6 men, and Ostheer can only fill Zis and Maxim with 4 men. The gimmick (crazy) abilities and the more squad member setting already compensating their inferior RoF, but when they vetted there is no much difference.

My 82mm / 81mm always reach vet 3 halfway before the games end, I find the best way to use mortar is do nothing with them, RNG god always favour the AI than your decision.

I always pick up ZiS as Germans (unless I already have 2 AT guns, in which case I destroy it), just like I always pick up PaKs as Soviet. The ironic thing is that Soviets love PaKs because they want a really strong AT gun to kill the heavier German tanks that are normally huge threats, while the Germans (at least in my case) like the ZiS because it lets us barrage the hordes of Conscripts/Maxims running around mid/late game. Overall though I'll agree that the PaK is stronger. If I had to choose one and only one, I'd always pick the PaK.

I consider the mortars to be pretty equal. German one is good normally, with a sub-par Vet 1 ability - the Soviet mortar is sub-par normally but has a great Vet 1 ability. Soviet mortar is also a lot more durable than the German mortar, and is shooting at smaller squads, which increases the chance that it will force a retreat.

In the current meta I actually prefer Maxims over MG42s. It's already difficult to flank a lone Maxim, and when you have 2-3 in close proximity to each other it is literally impossible. They're significantly better than MG42s when garrisoned and now that rifle grenades barely scratch them they're really hard to dislodge.

Overall I think Soviet combined arms is equally as good as German combined arms in a 1v1, and in team games it is considerably stronger than German combined arms.

You can't squad wipe a squad with precision strike just because the squad member are separated, damage-wise the shell can kill whether the guys are full health or not. For German support weapon, there are almost 3 members standing very close together, all you have to do to L2P your mouse more precise.

There is already an unfairness of squad members, more bullshit while Soviet capture German weapons and fill it with 6 men, and Ostheer can only fill Zis and Maxim with 4 men. The gimmick (crazy) abilities and the more squad member setting already compensating their inferior RoF, but when they vetted there is no much difference.

My 82mm / 81mm always reach vet 3 halfway before the games end, I find the best way to use mortar is do nothing with them, RNG god always favour the AI than your decision.

And yet as noted above grens and Pgrens are now designed to kill 6 models as fast as soviet squads kill 4. Fire and explosives are the only advantage and it's not that big. Again what your saying is dated.

81mm is a better mortar.

What brings this up is I had a match with an equal skilled player with the exact same unit composition 1 mortar 1 hmg 1 medium tank 1 at gun and two infantry squads. I was able to suppress one squad he suppressed two. My mortar got 0 kills his got 8 I hit his P4 with one shot before he could hid his pak hit my t34 twice. Even with no major mistakes between us his combined arms just clowned the shit out of mine. It wasn't even close performance wise. And it's further shown by preference. A wide selection of soviet units are rarely seen spamming one or two units is much more common because it's just more rewarding.

I mean I'll continue to spam units and most players will too until soviet support teams are more valuable but that makes for a boring meta.

@Ciez

I am sure if you had to pick between the 81 and 82 I am sure you would pick the 81 as well. I fail to see the balance. Yes prec strike is good. But it's lipstick on a pig. It would be akin to making the pak suck at AT compared to the Zis and saying TWP makes up for it. Maybe if prec strike ways vet 0 like barrage then the massive reload difference would make sense.

I disagree on the point that soviet combined arms is weak. I find 2 cons, 2 maxims, into shocks, and 2 ATGs capable of dealing with almost any situation. You can adapt as you please, but soviet T1 and T2 are both extremely strong and effective. Maxims are really good as both support units and as an anti harassment unit. You can force a retreat on a lone capping infantry squad extremely easily by simply A-moving to it with your maxim.

-While simply spamming conscripts might be an easier strategy than going combined arms, I would contend that its not necessarily stronger. Maxims can force a retreat and win you an engagement from range, while conscripts are forced to close the gap. Often times multiple gren squads in green cover will shred you if you try to close the gap with several cons, but even a single maxim can turn the engagement in your favor. I think that conscripts ease of use and their flexibility make them a strong unit that is easily spammable, but there are certainly many other viable strategies as soviets.

-The zis is both a capable AT gun and the barrage is useful in so many different situations its worth the lower ROF imo.

-As for all the precision strike nonsense, I havn't wiped an ostheer weapon team with this ability in quite some time so I don't understand all the fuss about it.

I think conscripts might need something to make them ever so slightly less effective in combat to make up for their general ease of use and flexibility, but soviet support weapons (aside from the garbage mortar) are fine.

120mm mortar worst investment of resources, it is better to buy 2 - 82 mm mortars.
Accuracy - 0
a turn, and prepare for battle - a huge
firing range is almost the same as the 82 mm

I just don't like 120mm Mortars because 2/3 their kills are my own troops. Fuckers are going to the Gulag after this fight.

I disagree on the point that soviet combined arms is weak. I find 2 cons, 2 maxims, into shocks, and 2 ATGs capable of dealing with almost any situation. You can adapt as you please, but soviet T1 and T2 are both extremely strong and effective. Maxims are really good as both support units and as an anti harassment unit. You can force a retreat on a lone capping infantry squad extremely easily by simply A-moving to it with your maxim.

-While simply spamming conscripts might be an easier strategy than going combined arms, I would contend that its not necessarily stronger. Maxims can force a retreat and win you an engagement from range, while conscripts are forced to close the gap. Often times multiple gren squads in green cover will shred you if you try to close the gap with several cons, but even a single maxim can turn the engagement in your favor. I think that conscripts ease of use and their flexibility make them a strong unit that is easily spammable, but there are certainly many other viable strategies as soviets.

-The zis is both a capable AT gun and the barrage is useful in so many different situations its worth the lower ROF imo.

-As for all the precision strike nonsense, I havn't wiped an ostheer weapon team with this ability in quite some time so I don't understand all the fuss about it.

I think conscripts might need something to make them ever so slightly less effective in combat to make up for their general ease of use and flexibility, but soviet support weapons (aside from the garbage mortar) are fine.

There is a difference between weak and not as strong. For example the T34 isnt weak. But its not as strong as an IS2.

I am saying soviet combined arms (at least in 1v1 in my experience) is not as strong as Spamming conscripts or sniper builds. When I say combined arms I mean support teams and I mean more than just two different units.

Two Zis are good but 1 Pak can do close to the same job at AT. 2 Maxims when 1 MG42 well microd can do the same thing (when it comes to blob control supporting grens).

Can Maxims be useful? Sure. Can Zis be useful? Well yeah its kind of neccassary and the only reason I build T2 to be honest.

Zis reload 4.425
Pak reload: Zis 2.7 to 3.1

Do i think barrage is useful? Yeah it can be. Maybe one in 10 games ill get 2-3 entity kills with it or free additional tank damage. Do I think it would as useful to saying having the reload down to say 3.5 to 4.1? Not in the least. Would changing it that little really be too much to ask? Would it make the Zis OP? No I think not.

Same goes with the Mortar

82 MM reload of 7.4
81 MM reload of 2.4

A 5 SECOND DIFFERENCE thats just INSANE. Is prec strike useful? Yeah I can spend muni and maybe get 2-3 entity kills for my trouble. Would I just get more kills with having a reload that gets the nicname "Turbo Mortar" for good reason? Yeah I would every game. Much much more valuable.

I mean if that difference in ability doesnt make you go GOOD LORD then you have to be the biggest fanboy on this forum.

Maxim is just personal preference. I want blob control but I cant have everything that I want. The issue with the maxim is dropping the stupid gun because you got hit and then the next guy dropping it etc and you wont be able to retreat.

So I am still of the opinion when I play as Ost and use support teams I get a much better result then when I use the Soviets. Outside of maybe Maxim spam.

yeah i think the sov mortar needs its ROF fire increased.


Also 120mm mortar needs to be more consistent. It either

A- kills everything
B- kills nothing

I just don't like 120mm Mortars because 2/3 their kills are my own troops. Fuckers are going to the Gulag after this fight.

Yep that started with the Hang Time nerf. After all its making the Mortar round ballistic. It takes alot of time to fall out of the Stratosphere.

I think the 120 MM has its place but they have patched so many things and left it stagnant. It needs to be looked at again. I would always rather have the Mortar HT. And I do. I build the Mortar HT at least 7x as much as the 120 MM.

Auto cover seek on retreat + soviet support weapons dropping = 100% rage chance.