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russian armor

Honest opinions about Balance - Soviet adv

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18 Jun 2014, 04:48 AM
#361
avatar of vietnamabc

Posts: 1063



When i meant tank i meant tanks that can do anti armor duty as well....not support vehicles.Ones u can use as ur frontline armoured unit.

Thats t-34/85,M4C sherman,kv-2,is-2,kv-1.
Among these only kv-1 is useless,kv-2 is not as useful as the others.
Is-2 is hardly useless ,can beat every ostheer tank other than tiger and with coming buff even that possibly.

As for ostheer only option is tiger.Puma is not a tank and not a serious lategame option.

''due to the nature of Ostheer, call ins are supplement to your army, not replacing them like Soviet so Ostheer is more flexible when it comes to commander choice''

Well thats no longer the case.There is no real ostheer stock armor to supplement...pz 4 has drunk gunner and panther is inaccesible.So right now ostheer just as dependant on call ins.If only panther was usable pricewise then this point wold be valid.

Uhm Stug has been buffed greatly, PzIV is only poor vs inf without the MG upgrade, T-34/76 is only good when RNG is on your side, some times it wipe a Pak in 2 shot, other times it fail to kill a pio squad. And Ostheer no longer goes T4, so what's the point of Soviet goes T4 also? SU-85 only exists to kill Panther and Tiger, for everything else T-34/76 is better.
18 Jun 2014, 07:30 AM
#362
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130


Uhm Stug has been buffed greatly, PzIV is only poor vs inf without the MG upgrade, T-34/76 is only good when RNG is on your side, some times it wipe a Pak in 2 shot, other times it fail to kill a pio squad. And Ostheer no longer goes T4, so what's the point of Soviet goes T4 also? SU-85 only exists to kill Panther and Tiger, for everything else T-34/76 is better.


The stug is doing a half assed job as a generalist which overlaps with the p4 role. This is a bit of a problem as you have no decent mobile anti-heavy AT units until you reach the panther . however reaching the panther in 1vs1 is not only expensive fuel wise but also mp wise.
p4 does have AI issues as relic in the past decided to t-34 should be more AI and the p4 more AT hence the higher scatter. but with the t-34 buff this no longer applies and the t-34 is the better tank in both AI and slightly in AT
18 Jun 2014, 08:25 AM
#363
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 807

Tbh I don't have a problem with the actual stug. It lost some power but gained it back on the other side. Actualy I don't have a problem with any of german T3 units. They are fine for their jobs and well balanced. In total opposition with T4 units with - except Brumbar - are eather useless (pzwerfer) eather not worthing to be built because there are better options, more cost effective(panther). Giving the fact that Brumbar's AI role can be played with success by Tiger, and Panther AT role can be successfuly played by the same unit, results german T4 is crap, doesn't worth building, and in your german loadout you should have 3 Tiger commanders or 2 Tiger commanders and one Elefant commander. For those with "true grit" :D maybe a PAK 43 comander will suit also.
18 Jun 2014, 08:38 AM
#364
avatar of FrikadelleXXL

Posts: 390

Permanently Banned
T34/85 is still too weak against Panzer IV it must be buffed :)
18 Jun 2014, 08:45 AM
#365
avatar of bogeuh

Posts: 89

really, T34/76 slightly better than P4?

germans have all the advatantages in AT and tanks
and it has been like that since forever
18 Jun 2014, 08:50 AM
#366
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jun 2014, 08:45 AMbogeuh
really, T34/76 slightly better than P4?

germans have all the advatantages in AT and tanks
and it has been like that since forever


Welcome to the new patch. t-34 does just as much damage as the p4 now. no problem but the p4 still suffers from the fact that its gunner is drunk and has an annoying tendency to miss
18 Jun 2014, 09:01 AM
#367
avatar of VetLolcake

Posts: 342

Permanently Banned
P4 is not worth it at all. 115 fuel Just LOL. It is weak as piss. Blitz is useless now and scatter is ridiculous.
18 Jun 2014, 09:15 AM
#368
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 807

Dunno, didn't have to much problems while using P4s. T34/76 is a good medium now, no doubt about it, has speed, damage and used against P4 in close range is quite good, but I wouldn't say it's superior. Of course, P4 should not be used in speed close up attacks. That is something T34 is good at. P4 should be used mostly from distance and not verry agressively. In fact, entire german faction must be used in a moderate way (moderate attacks) - not verry offensive - until you have Tigers. You just have to be patient while successfuly repelling soviet incursions and pushes, inflicting as much casualities as you can.
18 Jun 2014, 09:45 AM
#369
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 611

Dunno, didn't have to much problems while using P4s. T34/76 is a good medium now, no doubt about it, has speed, damage and used against P4 in close range is quite good, but I wouldn't say it's superior. Of course, P4 should not be used in speed close up attacks. That is something T34 is good at. P4 should be used mostly from distance and not verry agressively. In fact, entire german faction must be used in a moderate way (moderate attacks) - not verry offensive - until you have Tigers. You just have to be patient while successfuly repelling soviet incursions and pushes, inflicting as much casualities as you can.


You may change you opinion once the inevitable nerf to the tiger comes.

18 Jun 2014, 10:03 AM
#370
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 807



You may change you opinion once the inevitable nerf to the tiger comes.



Nerfing Tiger would be a stupid thing to do in my opinion, but that cannot come if they don't do anything related to Panther and generally, related to T4 in terms of costs and/or performance.
If the Tiger nerfing will take place and no change will be done to T4, then , of course, the game will be stupid, as simple as this, and soviet players will have to play against Computer. Easy, of course :D.
18 Jun 2014, 10:46 AM
#371
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130



You may change you opinion once the inevitable nerf to the tiger comes.



What your saying just show how weak german tier 3 and 4 are
18 Jun 2014, 11:24 AM
#372
avatar of bogeuh

Posts: 89








p434/76
armor-front180150
armor-rear9075
dmg160160
reload5.3-5.76.2-6.8
penetration110100


i'll regret taking the time looking it up and putting it in a table

you guys don't want an objective discussion, you just want to vent frustration over losing a game.
you're what 10 years old?
I got a spoiler for you: stop blaming everything and everyone else and make the best of what you have

18 Jun 2014, 11:39 AM
#373
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jun 2014, 08:50 AMJaigen


Welcome to the new patch. t-34 does just as much damage as the p4 now. no problem but the p4 still suffers from the fact that its gunner is drunk and has an annoying tendency to miss


If it only had same armor, same reload, same penetration and pintle enhancing its AI while plinking at planes as well.

Doing same damage does not translate to being equal. Remember when IS-2 had 240dmg? It was still inferior to Tiger and now that it does 160 dmg, its still vastly inferior to tiger.

T34 to P4 is exactly like IS-2 to Tiger if you think about it, except Tiger does extremely well against infantry, while P4 does just ok.

At least you've got the last part right.

@bogeuh
In case of some people, the biggest balance problem is located somewhere between chair and keyboard, you need to learn to tell which people make that group.
18 Jun 2014, 13:03 PM
#374
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jun 2014, 11:39 AMKatitof


@bogeuh
In case of some people, the biggest balance problem is located somewhere between chair and keyboard, you need to learn to tell which people make that group.


And some people are acting like idiotic fanboys with idiotic strawmen arguments. I never once said armor or penetration is an issue. I said that the p4 has some difficulty hitting the target because of its obscene high scatter which allows the t-34 to win against the p4 if the rng god is not in your favor all the wile the p4 is completely crap vs infantry.

Yesterday i managed to faust a t-34 and drove a p4 behind the t-34 . the p4 nearly lost because he missed 3 shots. RNG god was not in my favor but the points stand.

And whatever you say katitof the t-34 is only slightly less powerful if you ignore the scatter issue. thats a big improvement to the previous t-34 which was basically lost any engagement to the p4.
18 Jun 2014, 13:08 PM
#375
avatar of IpKaiFung
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1708 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jun 2014, 13:03 PMJaigen


And some people are acting like idiotic fanboys with idiotic strawmen arguments. I never once said armor or penetration is an issue. I said that the p4 has some difficulty hitting the target because of its obscene high scatter which allows the t-34 to win against the p4 if the rng god is not in your favor all the wile the p4 is completely crap vs infantry.

Yesterday i managed to faust a t-34 and drove a p4 behind the t-34 . the p4 nearly lost because he missed 3 shots. RNG god was not in my favor but the points stand.


The scatter stat only comes into play when it's ballistic weapon vs infantry. The accuracy stat is the deciding factor in vehicle vs vehicle fights.

You must also keep in mind that vehicle needs to be at a complete standstill otherwise the x0.5 accuracy modifier is applied.

Head to head the P4 will win most engagements vs the T-34/76 due to better armour and a better rate of fire on the main gun.
18 Jun 2014, 13:32 PM
#376
avatar of armatak

Posts: 170

Maybe a solution would be to impose limits on some "rare" units ie. you can only field 1/2 sniper(s) a time, only 1 ISU, etc.
18 Jun 2014, 13:50 PM
#377
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jun 2014, 11:24 AMbogeuh







p434/76
armor-front180150
armor-rear9075
dmg160160
reload5.3-5.76.2-6.8
penetration110100




This.

The small differential to favor PIV in armor engagements is emminently answered by T34s better maingun AI capacity, especially vs less numeric model Ost infantry squads (something which is often overlooked and understated in related discussion)

With some luck, T34 can beat a PIV headon. At worst, it loses.
If it had no chance whatsoever to beat a PIV, there would be a problem, but that is nowhere near the case.at present.

Any remaining slack is covered by the existance of Ram.
Arguably something which is reciprocated for on Ost by the pintle upgrade.

As Ipkai pointed out, try to always stop before firing. Makes a big difference.

Armatak: I think its safe to say generally, that if a unit needs a unit cap, it is overperforming, and needs stat or cost adjustment. A unit cap is a bandaid solution.
18 Jun 2014, 13:53 PM
#378
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571

The Stugs are very cost effective. 3 stugs > 2 panzer IVs in most situations.
18 Jun 2014, 14:35 PM
#379
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130

The Stugs are very cost effective. 3 stugs > 2 panzer IVs in most situations.


I do not disagree with this but they are somewhat map dependant
18 Jun 2014, 14:38 PM
#380
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130



The scatter stat only comes into play when it's ballistic weapon vs infantry. The accuracy stat is the deciding factor in vehicle vs vehicle fights.

You must also keep in mind that vehicle needs to be at a complete standstill otherwise the x0.5 accuracy modifier is applied.

Head to head the P4 will win most engagements vs the T-34/76 due to better armour and a better rate of fire on the main gun.


Scatter basically says that if it misses it will say how far it misses right? so how is scatter not affected by tank vs tank battle?
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