Nerf german mass panther rush

As far as I know blitz requires vet 1 and is cancelled when the engine is damaged and smoke is doctrinal and costs 40 muni?!

It just sounds like you are mad because your opponents know how to use a Panther properly.

Cripple their engines and watch them die in a hail of 85mm shells.

Getting vet 1 is easy, furthermore if you're playing elite.
Damage engine with AT nades its hard if your oponent micro a bit the panther -which is the most easy tank to micro eitherway and also is good against inf-. Smoke totally avoids other blockins -guard rifles- and if you damage engine while blitz is enable it keeps running at superspeed (bug?).
I'm not saying is impossible to kill a panther, but is way much dificult to kill it than any other tank of soviets tank (wich are all harder to micro than any other axis tank) and you have to spend always more resources than axis did and rely on his mistakes (or luck) instead of your skill to destroy it.

The main problem is that with soviets tanks you need to focus micro and with german tanks its only attack move.

Name one competitive game that balances based on the opinions and input of inexperienced players please. Game balance and game design are two different things.

"average joe" =/= inexperienced noob.

Just buff conscript damage when at close range and make them a bit cheaper and call it a day

Just buff conscript damage when at close range and make them a bit cheaper and call it a day

And what will be the difference between them and penals then?
These two have exactly the same combat role, suck at range hard, ok but certainly not excelling at point blank range.

If penals would be decent at range, then cons could get buffs for close range and yet the two wouldn't be too similar.
I don't know what PQ have up his sleeve to solve this issue, but I hope it won't make it even worse then it is now.

For now, cons work against only mid skill players.

Getting vet 1 is easy, furthermore if you're playing elite.
Damage engine with AT nades its hard if your oponent micro a bit the panther -which is the most easy tank to micro eitherway and also is good against inf-. Smoke totally avoids other blockins -guard rifles- and if you damage engine while blitz is enable it keeps running at superspeed (bug?).
I'm not saying is impossible to kill a panther, but is way much dificult to kill it than any other tank of soviets tank (wich are all harder to micro than any other axis tank) and you have to spend always more resources than axis did and rely on his mistakes (or luck) instead of your skill to destroy it.

The main problem is that with soviets tanks you need to focus micro and with german tanks its only attack move.

Oh, so it's hard to drive your SU-85 backwards? You call this "micro intensive"? Same goes for ISU-152 with it's massive range and killing power... you can't be seroius. Attack move a german tank in to soviet defensive line and watch it get crushed in seconds, but you are probably to busy "microing" your SU-85's around the map trying to circle strafe german armour to even notice...

trying to circle strafe german armour

And the winner is...

Getting vet 1 is easy, furthermore if you're playing elite.

Frankly, after they made experience so expensive and increased the recharging time, I don't think spending your resources on experience will be such a good investment. This doctrine it's good for G43, smoke, stun grenade and Tiger Ace. Experience purchase....mmmmh....

This is just an opinion from aside, I never bought this doctrine as I didn't buy Soviet Industry. They were OP like shit when they appeared and I hated them.

I routinely play games where all Panthers appear with Vet 1, and early Vet 3 support weapons teams are common too. Vet 1 is crucial for the over-drive ability.

Spamming XP / Vet is obviously wasteful, but lots of players exploit it in subtle ways. A properly protected and micro'd Vet 3 MG42 is a game changer.

Ha ha ha.

1 v 1 players are a tiny, albeit over-vocal, minority.

Most of the problems in this game are caused by 1 v 1 whiners.

well said

Ha ha ha.

1 v 1 players are a tiny, albeit over-vocal, minority.

Most of the problems in this game are caused by 1 v 1 whiners.

Hm. Maybe.

But I can tell you this: if you don't play 1v1 you'll never L2P properly. And you can see this after making this experiment: Play 2v2 3v3. After this play a while just 1v1. Then come back to 2v2 and 3v3 and see how much your skill improved.
Also the balance between factions build starts from 1v1. This must be balanced first, then move further to 2v2 and 3v3. But Relic is to damn busy making money and they don't bother too much to go further and look beyond 1v1 because it would take to much time. That is the real problem I guess. Not 1v1 players.

It doesn't change the fact that 1 v 1 players are a minority. An over-indulged, increasingly spoilt and disproportionately influential minority.

This forum is increasingly hostile to anyone who isn't a member of the 1v1 master race. Our opinions are routinely derided (yeah, 3 v 3 is broken, who cares?) and our preferences belittled (that's casual, man).

So a question, mainly aimed at site admins - do you want CoH2.org to be more inclusive or as another forum member said yesterday "go find another forum?"

The idea that only the 1 v 1 obsessed can enjoy this game and participate meaningfully in this community is risible.

It doesn't change the fact that 1 v 1 players are a minority. An over-indulged, increasingly spoilt and disproportionately influential minority.

This forum is increasingly hostile to anyone who isn't a member of the 1v1 master race. Our opinions are routinely derided (yeah, 3 v 3 is broken, who cares?) and our preferences belittled (that's casual, man).

So a question, mainly aimed at site admins - do you want CoH2.org to be more inclusive or as another forum member said yesterday "go find another forum?"

The idea that only the 1 v 1 obsessed can enjoy this game and participate meaningfully in this community is risible.

It is the truth or law of RTS, it is made for 1v1 gameplay, or more or less for 2v2 too. Anything above 3v3 cannot be balanced or it will ruin the core system of the game.

You cannot find 3v3 RTS that is not casual-based, because they will be uberspammy.

Porygon, this is a rather ignorant opinion, so let me present some reasons. Why "not caring" for team games is bad.

Relic said 4v4 is the game mode with most players. This shares a lot of similarities with vs AI skirmishes. So if Relic would actually want to care for the majority of the community, they would have to focus balance on this.

It doesn't change the fact that 1 v 1 players are a minority. An over-indulged, increasingly spoilt and disproportionately influential minority.

What BeltFedWombat said is quite true. The 1v1 players are a minority, but they see themselves as the most important part of the game, the only players with true skill and the only ones for which the game should be balanced. The CoH community is one of the worst communities ever and I personally think a major part is due to the thought of elitism of 1v1 players. Without the casual/teamgame part of the community CoH2 would not exist. Yet you treat them as if they are not even worthy of being recognized.

Balance wise a trickle down system COULD work, but only if Relic creates some kind of scaling factors for bigger game modes. As long as those do not exist, balancing solely for 1v1 is a balance for the minority of the community. There are a lot of units and vehicles that are really strong in 1v1, but weak in bigger game modes - take the IS-2 for example. In a 4v4 it's rather weak, whereas in a 1v1 it's death incarnate. Solely focusing on only one spectrum of the size for the balance would make it even worse in the other.

Now back to the top part:

It is the truth or law of RTS, it is made for 1v1 gameplay, or more or less for 2v2 too. Anything above 3v3 cannot be balanced or it will ruin the core system of the game.

You cannot find 3v3 RTS that is not casual-based, because they will be uberspammy.

AoE2 was pretty balanced in all game modes. Then another incredibly well done RTS game was actually made for 5v5. Yes 5v5, that's even MORE than the 3v3 you state. And it's not uberspammy. And it's an RTS. And it was successful and played competitive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_in_Conflict#Reception

AoE2 was pretty balanced in all game modes. Then another incredibly well done RTS game was actually made for 5v5. Yes 5v5, that's even MORE than the 3v3 you state. And it's not uberspammy. And it's an RTS. And it was successful and played competitive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_in_Conflict#Reception

another good example of well-balanced team RTS is Wargame ALB and new Red Dragon

Even CoH vanila was more balanced in 3 vs 3 + modes than CoH2

Actually 2x T-34/76 (560mp 170fu) for one panther (520mp 140fu)is a trade where the german player comes out on top and currently a panther can take out two T-34/76s without much trouble if ram is not used or ram fails.

THIS

Sigh, again this discussion.

Someone already said it and stated perfectly.

To "fix" teamgames, specially 3v3+, we need to adjust resource gaining (specially Opel + Caches) so that the game becomes less "spammy". But that can be the whole reason someone plays those modes. So in order to balance it, you have to take out one of the reasons someone may have to play it.

...

AoE2 civilizations has almost the same units (at least early game). For the casual people (and mayority), its about "sim city" on the first minutes and then amass troops and attack.
When you learn a bit more, you know how to micro/macro well your economy or perform a couple of rushes but still the early game is "almost" the same (unless you play huns).

World in Conflict and Wargame don´t necessary fall in the same RTS category as AoE, CoH, SC2, RA, etc.


@BeltFedWombat @Cohforever: are this the main problems?
-Spam of units and resources.
-Ease of use of Panthers + PG shreck blob
-Even if SU have more "wipe" capabilities, the burst damage/resistance OH have on tanks and infantry against tanks makes them really great late game.
-Combine the last point with infantry losing importance during late game when tanks have such big power and paks can be clear pretty easily.
-Some offmaps have really good crowd control for it´s price (strafing run).
-It´s more factible to have a recon + offmap as OH rather as Soviets. It makes any artillery quite dead.
-Bunkers are cheap for what they can do.
-Sniper spam can be deadly early game since you can rely on your teammates to cover you and cap.

Did i miss something?

All what i said can be somehow find on 2v2. The difference is map presence/tactics and resources.
If there is an issue on 1v1/2v2, then its gets multiplied on 3v3/4v4.
Also the nature of OH faction makes it extremely easier to play on 3v3+ random in comparison to SU. You have all the tools at your disposal T1+T2+T3/T4 in comparison to the need of synergy of T1/T2 + T3/T4

Sigh, again this discussion.

Someone already said it and stated perfectly.

To "fix" teamgames, specially 3v3+, we need to adjust resource gaining (specially Opel + Caches) so that the game becomes less "spammy". But that can be the whole reason someone plays those modes. So in order to balance it, you have to take out one of the reasons someone may have to play it.

If it benefits one side over the other to spam, then YES, it should be fixed if 3v3 and 4v4 are popular modes of play.

You WANT the game to be fair in the popular modes if only to make sure the most people play it. More players equals more $ for Relic. More $ for Relic is good for the franchise and the players in general.

vCOH solved this for the most part on some of the most popular maps. High resource points were absent as were medium fuel points. This made teching and spamming more difficult and team work, map knowledge and map control more important. If the game lasted long enough that was very friendly to Wehr. If it lasted longer than that it could actually again tilt towards Allies as the Allied units vetted. (For this it is important that earned vet is, at the highest levels, superior to bought vet).

Red Ball and Montargis were the most competitive maps because you had to outplay the other team. And control of a predominance of fuel or munitions could change during the game several times.

And over time lots of things that were "cheesy" in early patches were changed. It was once possible to get unlimited armor replacement from Allied War Machine. That was nerfed down to 2 replacements.