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Shreked PGrens... Balanced or no?

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JHeartless
5 Apr 2014, 20:33 PM
#21
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Posts: 1637

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Apr 2014, 18:44 PM__deleted__
Yes, the PzGrens with shrecks are so OP.

Also I believe cons with their mossins are so OP. They should be equiped with slings. :loco:


I see comparing the best infantry AT combined with one of the best infantry AI really compares to the weakest infantry. They weren't as bad when STs were gods. But now they lost a small amount of armor and nearly doubled their AI this patch. Means a shrekd Pgren can flank and kill a zis almost as well as AI Pgrens prepatch.

Now having shrekd as primary AT and backing them up with an Ostwind or a Brummbar is even more viable since they can whipe a zis a lot easier.
jump backJump back to quoted post5 Mar 2015, 21:57 PMREforever
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
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wooof
5 Apr 2014, 21:24 PM
#22
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Posts: 950 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Apr 2014, 20:33 PMJHeartless

But now they lost a small amount of armor and nearly doubled their AI this patch. Means a shrekd Pgren can flank and kill a zis almost as well as AI Pgrens prepatch.


and where did you get these numbers?

mp44 dps only went up about 15% up close. at 30m, it went up 44%. the main reason for these changes is ALL small arms dps went up. the other reason is the fact that german inf lost its armor so they need to do more damage than soviets to offset the extra health.

guess how much ppsh dps went up for close range? 69%. dp-28 dps also went up 48% at close range and 38% at long range. combine that with the lost german armor, and german squads are extremely squishy.
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JHeartless
5 Apr 2014, 21:48 PM
#23
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Posts: 1637

And how much armor HPs armor or DPS did the zis crew get? How much was a bundle nade get nerfed? It is a fact that current shrekd Pgrens can kill a zis faster than before end of story. They can also stomp t70s t34s and especially SU85s as always. Making backing them up with Ostwinds or brumbars even more effective than before. And wow did all other infantry get a boost too? Thought this was about how stupidly effective Pgrens are this patch.
jump backJump back to quoted post5 Mar 2015, 21:57 PMREforever
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
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VonMecha
5 Apr 2014, 22:57 PM
#24
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Posts: 419

I just played a game where I lost very quickly vet2 shrekd pgs to a t34. So saying t34s cant defend themselves vs pgs is a fallacy. Pgs out in the open lose and pgs in cover with an antitank weapon should beat a low level tank or why else have a antitank weapon. Though i must admit pgs in the german clown car are beastly. I love mg and zis spammers. i prefer that over ostwind now.
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JHeartless
5 Apr 2014, 23:09 PM
#25
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Posts: 1637

It can happen but as noted rng. I have lost or had T34s severely beaten to near death more often than I have force retreated them. It's not worth the risk. It's kind of like countering pre patch soviet snipers with mirrors. Not at all what you can count on.

If PTRS could do the same to a P4 I would agree. If the nerf to moving accuracy hadn't happend again I would agree. Also SU85s aren't low level tanks and are counters even easier and can get good rng hits as well. It is much easier to counter a T34 with Pgrens then to counter Pgrens with a T34. I have had situations where it took me 30 seconds to whipe a squad with two T34s and times where I wiped out a squad near a fuel point in a single hit.
jump backJump back to quoted post5 Mar 2015, 21:57 PMREforever
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
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JHeartless
5 Apr 2014, 23:10 PM
#26
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Posts: 1637

Mirrors equal mortars silly predictive text
jump backJump back to quoted post5 Mar 2015, 21:57 PMREforever
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
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VonMecha
5 Apr 2014, 23:14 PM
#27
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Are you saying pgs should have no chance vs t34s? What do you feel is an adequate solution to the problem of actual or perceived imbalance?
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wooof
5 Apr 2014, 23:26 PM
#28
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jump backJump back to quoted post5 Apr 2014, 21:48 PMJHeartless
And how much armor HPs armor or DPS did the zis crew get? How much was a bundle nade get nerfed? It is a fact that current shrekd Pgrens can kill a zis faster than before end of story. They can also stomp t70s t34s and especially SU85s as always. Making backing them up with Ostwinds or brumbars even more effective than before. And wow did all other infantry get a boost too? Thought this was about how stupidly effective Pgrens are this patch.



dont get so defensive. you made a false claim and you couldnt back it up. schrecked pgrens now kill faster than schrecked pgrens in the old patch, but thats not what you claimed.

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Apr 2014, 20:33 PMJHeartless

But now they lost a small amount of armor and nearly doubled their AI this patch. Means a shrekd Pgren can flank and kill a zis almost as well as AI Pgrens prepatch.



nothing in these sentences is true except that pgrens lost armor. you dont think other infantry getting stronger relative to pgrens is relevant to pgren balance? maybe thats why you keep complaining about t70s t34s and tank destroyers dieing to them.
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JHeartless
5 Apr 2014, 23:28 PM
#29
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Posts: 1637

Reduce moving some of the moving accuracy penalty to allow better kiting or any other Aoe type change to allow it to better punish infantry that are just lol siting in front of the gun. Or another route would be to give soviets infantry at that threatens German armor in a similar fashion.
jump backJump back to quoted post5 Mar 2015, 21:57 PMREforever
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
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JHeartless
5 Apr 2014, 23:34 PM
#30
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Posts: 1637

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Apr 2014, 23:26 PMwooof



dont get so defensive. you made a false claim and you couldnt back it up. schrecked pgrens now kill faster than schrecked pgrens in the old patch, but thats not what you claimed.




nothing in these sentences is true except that pgrens lost armor. you dont think other infantry getting stronger relative to pgrens is relevant to pgren balance? maybe thats why you keep complaining about t70s t34s and tank destroyers dieing to them.


You are plain rude. The tone you use elicits that sort of response. Soviet AI going after Pgrens are only good up close and out of cover to close the distance where they get owned. Pgrens have needed adjustment since the last armor nerf IMHO. It's silly to seem infantry own AI tanks in any scenario ever. Further it's now a case of what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Soviet AI has suffered so had the zis this patch. German AT should be toned down.
jump backJump back to quoted post5 Mar 2015, 21:57 PMREforever
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
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Puppetmaster
6 Apr 2014, 00:09 AM
#31
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jump backJump back to quoted post5 Apr 2014, 23:14 PMVonMecha
Are you saying pgs should have no chance vs t34s? What do you feel is an adequate solution to the problem of actual or perceived imbalance?


Compare these:

Panzer gren squad with shrecks vs T-34
Guard squad with DP upgrade vs Panzer IV

Which one would come off better? Also consider that guards are doctrinal and the Panzer IV can use smoke and blitzkrieg to get out of button.

I don't feel that Panzergrens shouldn't have a chance vs a T-34, but I think that guards could do with having more of a chance vs a Panzer IV.
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spajn
6 Apr 2014, 00:24 AM
#32
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Pgrens are cool

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Cardboard Tank
6 Apr 2014, 00:48 AM
#33
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Posts: 978

Panzergrenadiere and Schrecks are balanced. The Schreck upgrade costs as much as two MG42s or a flamer halftrack. Usually you only get off one volley (2 rockets) with them before you have to hit the retreat button: Every decent Soviet player will try to run the PGs over with the T-34. This or the PG squad gets halfed in 4 seconds due to explosions or flames (T-34/85, IS-2, KV-8). Then you have to run to not give away a Schreck.

I had games where Schrecks were the only viable AT choice, as Su-85s and Zis were spammed which instantly shot down any Panzer IV or Panther. Paks were simply to immobile to cause any threat. Nerfing Schrecks now would be incredibly boring as they are the only viable infantry AT.
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wooof
6 Apr 2014, 01:06 AM
#34
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Posts: 950 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2014, 00:09 AMPuppetmaster


Compare these:

Panzer gren squad with shrecks vs T-34
Guard squad with DP upgrade vs Panzer IV


guards are support units. theyre not meant to attack vehicles in the same way as pgrens. combine guards with a zis or su85 and they synergize a lot better than pgrens and a pak.
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CookiezNcreem
6 Apr 2014, 01:16 AM
#35
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moving nerf is brutal to Russian tanks trying to fight them.

You gotta pretend like Shrecked Pzgrens are like RPG-7 Insurgents in Iraq or something. you gotta have a web of Anti RPG defense around your tanks at all times to protect them.

if theres a massive blob of crazy SS Panzergrenadierere with shreks walking up and owning your tanks in one volley,then INCENDIARY BARRAGe in their path works nice...

I Do agree though the accuracy at range on them is too long...it seems Shrek rockets have that homing AT grenade panzer faust accuracy and a reversing t34 should be relatively safe from shreks.
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Volsky
6 Apr 2014, 03:23 AM
#36
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Posts: 344

1v1s can take a hike.

In team games PGs are the icing on the "I won because I hit the 'Build [ubermench unit]' button!" cake.

Something needs to be done, because silly BS like this was nowhere to be seen in vCoH.

Or, scratch that, silly BS like this could be dealt with in vCoH because every faction's infantry was armed with real weapons and weren't paper mache stick figures.
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wongtp
6 Apr 2014, 05:50 AM
#37
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Posts: 647

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2014, 03:23 AMVolsky
1v1s can take a hike.

In team games PGs are the icing on the "I won because I hit the 'Build [ubermench unit]' button!" cake.

Something needs to be done, because silly BS like this was nowhere to be seen in vCoH.

Or, scratch that, silly BS like this could be dealt with in vCoH because every faction's infantry was armed with real weapons and weren't paper mache stick figures.


wrong. before some patch in vcoh, grenadiers and schrecks came with good penetration values and good accuracy at long range. players then screamed to nerf that piece of shit because if you could bring enough of them, grenadiers could shit on shermans and pershings and were still tough enough to support in infantry fights. also back then double schrecks were 150munitions.

they were only considered balanced because of later nerfs that made them unable to snipe infantry with each salvo and take out tanks at range, they became AT support, to prevent flanking armour.

yet in coh2, people defend these schrecks that have the same effectiveness as the old schrecks for some reason now.
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raw
6 Apr 2014, 09:07 AM
#38
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Posts: 644

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Apr 2014, 21:24 PMwooof


and where did you get these numbers?



experience. pgrens drop Paks so fast its not even funny anymore, the grenade is just instant squad wipe for about any infantry and the shreck invalidates every non-doctrinal soviet armor.

that was all true well before the latest patch. but smart play could at least deflect most a-moved grens. now even that isn't possible anymore.
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Raindrop
6 Apr 2014, 09:57 AM
#39
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Posts: 105

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Apr 2014, 06:10 AMMarcoRossolini

They have the same range as tank guns, they have monster penetration (vs Soviet tanks anyway) and they're carried by infantry and with infantry getting hit by a tank is extremely rng dependent. I have no problem with that rng but what I do have a problem with is the range of panzershreks. All the time I see these panzershreks charging at T-34s or SU-85s blazing away with shreks, their toughness allowing them to weather return small arms fire and their infantry size making it very difficult for the tanks to shut down an assault. The result of this charge are that Soviet tanks must fall back against these ubermensch charging them who get tons of vet from damaging if not killing Soviet tanks and are then able to simply retreat away with little chance of being killed while doing it. To me that strikes me as a ridiculous imbalance, especially considering the poor quality of Soviet infantry AT in comparison.


TL DR: Panzershreks have too good range and damage for their mobility.


Actually Panzerschreck range is 35, while most vehicle (all tank) main guns ranges are 40< so there is a distance of 5 in favor for the vehicles.

As for thier mobility they dont have fotm which means they can be kited.

I dont consider them overpowerd, but maybe a small max range nerf to 32 or 30 would be appropriate, so there would be diffrence between short range/high dps/high penetraion Panzerschrecks and long range (45)/medium dps/low penetraiton PTRS.
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buckers
6 Apr 2014, 10:51 AM
#40
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Posts: 230

it should be 1 for 60, it was like that in the beta and it was perfect
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