What the .... is up with the germans ?

Grens dont clear a maxim with 1 riflenade unless you are the luckiest person on the planet. Thats like saying T34 one shots mg42 crews.

If there is unbalance they should buff soviet firepower not nerf german. The important part of this update is if you charge on open ground you should take severe losses. Nerfing firepower might make it worthwhile again to always charge and molotov.

Agree with you. Of course the riflenade doesn't kill the whole maxim, I meant something else sorry at this point . However, the riflenade often kills up to 4 man and a maxim with 2 men left is cleared very easily.
I also think they should not nerf Germans but buff Sovjet infantry

rifles nades vs maxims are all about how the soviet placed the squad. you can see how the men will group up when youre positioning the mg. if you pick a small crater or something where they all stand next to each other, the maxim can get wiped, but its your own fault. if you put them behind a wall or sand bags properly, only 2-3 men should die to a rifle nade. theres really very little rng in this engagement anymore.

Let us explore the facts of this patch.

Grenadiers cost 240 Manpower and will reliably beat Conscripts in all combat situations, regardless of upgrades, by simply sitting in light or heavy cover. Even charging Conscripts is viable if you have two Grenadiers to his one Conscript. If met with a crewed weapon, one need only to launch a rifle grenade on it and continue to flank or advance towards the weapon with minimal deviation from his original route. Late game, Grenadiers can still get away with suiciding through multiple Soviet tanks (and their machine guns) to kill ZiS weapons and the like, and faust most of the Soviet vehicles before having to retreat. Vet retention is very good unless met with something such as an ISU-152.

Conscripts cost 240 Manpower and will beat Pioneers provided that they enter cover first and are at least at medium to long range. Against Grenadiers, they will lose very handedly even if in cover. Charging two Conscripts towards a Grenadier is asking to have one squad wiped and the other damaged to the point of having to retreat. If met with an MG42, the user must use Ura! to exit the VERY wide arc of fire of the MG, or to get close enough to loose a Molotov onto its crew (assuming the Cons become suppressed, they MG user will have ample time to pack up and move). Attempting to charge an MG is asking to get your face removed, and supported crew weapons are even deadlier as Grenadiers out-DPS you at all ranges, and Pioneers will beat you at point blank range. Late game, Soviet infantry is easily chewed up by Axis hull and co-axial weapons; a Panther is capable of being a mobile suppression platform with the top MG mounted. Attempting to charge an Axis tank to loose a magnetic AT grenade is suicide and usually amounts to a dead Conscript squad. Trying to charge past Axis units to kill a PaK also yields dead infantry.

Penal Battalions Companies cost 270 manpower and will beat Grenadiers and Pioneers at close range provided the Grenadiers lack an MG42, and the Pioneers lack a Flammenwerfer. At long ranges, Penal troops will easily be beaten by Grenadiers, even if the latter is not in cover, and the former is. If faced with an MG42, the Penal troops have no option but to halt and hope to kill the crew before becoming suppressed--they have no ability to Ura! out of harms way until reaching Vet2 (a weedy prospect at best). If you do manage to close with a crewed weapon, your only throw-able option is a satchel charge, that, with a 5 second fuse, is of dubious value against a wary opponent. The only boon of the charge is its ability to now demolish a bunker with one go, but this again assumes you were able to make it to the bunker. Late game, lacking any AT capabilities, Penal troops are more often than not dead weight. Attempting to use them meets the same results as Conscripts, although you may be able to tackle a crewed weapon or lone Grenadier before needing to retreat or being wiped out.

Panzergrenadiere cost 280 manpower and will handedly and quickly beat all manner of enemy infantry at any range, no matter if standing still or charging, with only Shock Troops requiring them to stop and stand their ground for fear of getting beaten at only the closest of ranges. If faced with a crewed weapon, their DPS output is often high enough to kill the gunner before they can be suppressed, and, in any event, their bundled grenade has a long enough range to wipe the crew before being suppressed as well. Late game, Panzergrenadiere can be issued with a pair of Panzerschrecks, with four 'Shrecks being capable of wiping out a T-34 obr 1942 (e.g. T-34/76) with a single volley of fire. With this upgrade, ALL Soviet vehicles, even the ISU-152 and Kliment Voroshilov-series of tanks are forced to retreat in the face of even a pair of Panzergrenadiere. Even with Panzershrecks mounted, PGs retain enough DPS to be able to beat a Conscript squad at close to medium range, and still retain their bundled grenade. Capable of warding off Soviet infantry and vehicles merely by their appearance on the field, Panzergrenadiere have no trouble reaching crewed ZiS weapons, removing them and denying their crucial presence to the Soviets.

Guards Riflemen cost 360 manpower and are limited to a doctrinal existence, and will lose to any Axis infantry squad unless the DP-28 upgrade is researched, regardless of cover. If met with a team weapon, Guards can at least create a window of escape with their RGD-33 hand grenade that can wipe the crew or at least kill the gunner. With DPs researched, Guards possess (from experience) a 50/50 chance of beating Grenadiers (that lack the LMG42 upgrade) at medium to short range, Pioneers at medium to long range, and Panzergrenadiere if the lattermost is out of cover and/or charging towards their position. Their default armament of two PTRS-41 14.5mm anti-materiel rifles are capable of two or three shotting the 222 armored car and the 251 halftrack, but are worth little even against the rear of anything other than the two aforementioned targets. The PTRS, is, however, a very effective anti-bunker weapon. With the DP upgrade purchased, Guards can choose to button an enemy vehicle, forcing it to a crawl and disabling its weapons (often the only thing capable of stopping an Axis vehicle rush). Late game, only their button ability makes their presence worthwhile, as they will either be rifle-grenaded to death, charged down by multiple Panzergrenadiere, or run over by an Axis vehicle using the Blitzkrieg ability. Attempting to use them to charge up to crewed weapons is an exercise in frustration, as both the PTRS rifle and the DP light machine gun do not fire on the move. Guards are just as "squishy" as Conscripts and Penal troops, and thus, charging Axis vehicles with them usually yields a squad of dead light infantry.

Are these facts in dispute? Are we fine with said facts? If you are, you have no concept of "balance", regardless of side. I think the Heer is cool as sh*t; I've spent over 40 hours researching them over the last two years for a realism mod I'm working on for vCoH. You know one of the few things I think is equally/slightly more cool? The Red Army, for pulling one of the most baffling turnaround victories (see: WWII) out of its rear end against all odds and all expectations. Hell, I took my screen name from a Red Army character in Call of Duty 2. That doesn't diminish the respect and awe I still have towards the German war machine.

If anyone wants to take politics and fanboyism into the mix, I'll take your head and shove it so far up your aft end that the lump in your throat will be your nose. Enough of this bollocks. Grow up and have a serious discussion.

^+1

+1

Let us explore the facts of this patch.

Grenadiers cost 240 Manpower and will reliably beat Conscripts in all combat situations, regardless of upgrades, by simply sitting in light or heavy cover. Even charging Conscripts is viable if you have two Grenadiers to his one Conscript. If met with a crewed weapon, one need only to launch a rifle grenade on it and continue to flank or advance towards the weapon with minimal deviation from his original route. Late game, Grenadiers can still get away with suiciding through multiple Soviet tanks (and their machine guns) to kill ZiS weapons and the like, and faust most of the Soviet vehicles before having to retreat. Vet retention is very good unless met with something such as an ISU-152.

Conscripts cost 240 Manpower and will beat Pioneers provided that they enter cover first and are at least at medium to long range. Against Grenadiers, they will lose very handedly even if in cover. Charging two Conscripts towards a Grenadier is asking to have one squad wiped and the other damaged to the point of having to retreat. If met with an MG42, the user must use Ura! to exit the VERY wide arc of fire of the MG, or to get close enough to loose a Molotov onto its crew (assuming the Cons become suppressed, they MG user will have ample time to pack up and move). Attempting to charge an MG is asking to get your face removed, and supported crew weapons are even deadlier as Grenadiers out-DPS you at all ranges, and Pioneers will beat you at point blank range. Late game, Soviet infantry is easily chewed up by Axis hull and co-axial weapons; a Panther is capable of being a mobile suppression platform with the top MG mounted. Attempting to charge an Axis tank to loose a magnetic AT grenade is suicide and usually amounts to a dead Conscript squad. Trying to charge past Axis units to kill a PaK also yields dead infantry.

Penal Battalions Companies cost 270 manpower and will beat Grenadiers and Pioneers at close range provided the Grenadiers lack an MG42, and the Pioneers lack a Flammenwerfer. At long ranges, Penal troops will easily be beaten by Grenadiers, even if the latter is not in cover, and the former is. If faced with an MG42, the Penal troops have no option but to halt and hope to kill the crew before becoming suppressed--they have no ability to Ura! out of harms way until reaching Vet2 (a weedy prospect at best). If you do manage to close with a crewed weapon, your only throw-able option is a satchel charge, that, with a 5 second fuse, is of dubious value against a wary opponent. The only boon of the charge is its ability to now demolish a bunker with one go, but this again assumes you were able to make it to the bunker. Late game, lacking any AT capabilities, Penal troops are more often than not dead weight. Attempting to use them meets the same results as Conscripts, although you may be able to tackle a crewed weapon or lone Grenadier before needing to retreat or being wiped out.

Panzergrenadiere cost 280 manpower and will handedly and quickly beat all manner of enemy infantry at any range, no matter if standing still or charging, with only Shock Troops requiring them to stop and stand their ground for fear of getting beaten at only the closest of ranges. If faced with a crewed weapon, their DPS output is often high enough to kill the gunner before they can be suppressed, and, in any event, their bundled grenade has a long enough range to wipe the crew before being suppressed as well. Late game, Panzergrenadiere can be issued with a pair of Panzerschrecks, with four 'Shrecks being capable of wiping out a T-34 obr 1942 (e.g. T-34/76) with a single volley of fire. With this upgrade, ALL Soviet vehicles, even the ISU-152 and Kliment Voroshilov-series of tanks are forced to retreat in the face of even a pair of Panzergrenadiere. Even with Panzershrecks mounted, PGs retain enough DPS to be able to beat a Conscript squad at close to medium range, and still retain their bundled grenade. Capable of warding off Soviet infantry and vehicles merely by their appearance on the field, Panzergrenadiere have no trouble reaching crewed ZiS weapons, removing them and denying their crucial presence to the Soviets.

Guards Riflemen cost 360 manpower and are limited to a doctrinal existence, and will lose to any Axis infantry squad unless the DP-28 upgrade is researched, regardless of cover. If met with a team weapon, Guards can at least create a window of escape with their RGD-33 hand grenade that can wipe the crew or at least kill the gunner. With DPs researched, Guards possess (from experience) a 50/50 chance of beating Grenadiers (that lack the LMG42 upgrade) at medium to short range, Pioneers at medium to long range, and Panzergrenadiere if the lattermost is out of cover and/or charging towards their position. Their default armament of two PTRS-41 14.5mm anti-materiel rifles are capable of two or three shotting the 222 armored car and the 251 halftrack, but are worth little even against the rear of anything other than the two aforementioned targets. The PTRS, is, however, a very effective anti-bunker weapon. With the DP upgrade purchased, Guards can choose to button an enemy vehicle, forcing it to a crawl and disabling its weapons (often the only thing capable of stopping an Axis vehicle rush). Late game, only their button ability makes their presence worthwhile, as they will either be rifle-grenaded to death, charged down by multiple Panzergrenadiere, or run over by an Axis vehicle using the Blitzkrieg ability. Attempting to use them to charge up to crewed weapons is an exercise in frustration, as both the PTRS rifle and the DP light machine gun do not fire on the move. Guards are just as "squishy" as Conscripts and Penal troops, and thus, charging Axis vehicles with them usually yields a squad of dead light infantry.

Are these facts in dispute? Are we fine with said facts? If you are, you have no concept of "balance", regardless of side. I think the Heer is cool as sh*t; I've spent over 40 hours researching them over the last two years for a realism mod I'm working on for vCoH. You know one of the few things I think is equally/slightly more cool? The Red Army, for pulling one of the most baffling turnaround victories (see: WWII) out of its rear end against all odds and all expectations. Hell, I took my screen name from a Red Army character in Call of Duty 2. That doesn't diminish the respect and awe I still have towards the German war machine.

If anyone wants to take politics and fanboyism into the mix, I'll take your head and shove it so far up your aft end that the lump in your throat will be your nose. Enough of this bollocks. Grow up and have a serious discussion.

I'm not going to make a bloated reply to tell you things you already know, at least I hope you already know and this is just some amateur attempt to get everyone to drink the kool-aid.

Your text is full of hyperbolic nonsense such as the Panther being an anti-infantry platform or Penal Troops easily beaten at range. Just nonsense.

Do grenadiers at long range, in cover, with a rifle nade, win against almost all soviet infantry (guards are a tough nut to crack), yes. Thats only because the soviet player is, for some reason, playing exactly to the grenadiers strengths - thats why shocks have smoke nades, why conscripts/penals have oorah, so they can get close and fight the battle on their terms.

Thats it, thats all I should need to say. Fight grenadiers at range with a unit that should fight close up and you will lose, obvious if you think about it for more than one second.

I'm not going to make a bloated reply to tell you things you already know, at least I hope you already know and this is just some amateur attempt to get everyone to drink the kool-aid.

Your text is full of hyperbolic nonsense such as the Panther being an anti-infantry platform or Penal Troops easily beaten at range. Just nonsense.

Do grenadiers at long range, in cover, with a rifle nade, win against almost all soviet infantry (guards are a tough nut to crack), yes. Thats only because the soviet player is, for some reason, playing exactly to the grenadiers strengths - thats why shocks have smoke nades, why conscripts/penals have oorah, so they can get close and fight the battle on their terms.

Thats it, thats all I should need to say. Fight grenadiers at range with a unit that should fight close up and you will lose, obvious if you think about it for more than one second.

Smoke grenades on shocks can work, but what happens when the german player sees this and just runs backwards. As soon as you emerge from smoke, your back to square one.

Penals don't get oorah until they have vet so what do you do until then. Even with conscripts having it, you will more often than not lose most of your health while trying to get in cover, due to the nature of this patch and the changes it has brought in.

Once again being a German only player has blinded you to the truth. If you bothered to play soviets you would know that it isn't possible to do what you have written.

First of all let me say that I love the changes to the cover system and most of the weapon profiles. Having said that,

Pios too stronk
LMG or G43 Grens too stronk
PGs good from all ranges
lategame Wehr Armor WAY too stronk
Blitzkrieg ability on tanks WAY too stronk

I've been playing both factions, Germans is definitely easymode at the moment

+1

I didnt thought i would say this, but i prefer the old Penals with good long range dps rather to the "upgraded" conscripts we have now.

Conscripts for close-mid range and Penals for mid-long engagements.

Smoke grenades on shocks can work, but what happens when the german player sees this and just runs backwards. As soon as you emerge from smoke, your back to square one.

Penals don't get oorah until they have vet so what do you do until then. Even with conscripts having it, you will more often than not lose most of your health while trying to get in cover, due to the nature of this patch and the changes it has brought in.

Once again being a German only player has blinded you to the truth. If you bothered to play soviets you would know that it isn't possible to do what you have written.

What if you pop a smoke grenade and a sturmovik crashes into the ground killing all of your shocktroopers? What if you oorah right into the set of the 1990 failed sitcom 'Heil Honey I'm Home' and are forever labelled as an anti-semite for your part in the debacle?

You can list worst case scenarios until your fingers bleed, doesen't change the fact that closing in effectively and forcing grenadiers out of cover will usually give you the advantge.

What if you pop a smoke grenade and a sturmovik crashes into the ground killing all of your shocktroopers? What if you oorah right into the set of the 1990 failed sitcom 'Heil Honey I'm Home' and are forever labelled as an anti-semite for your part in the debacle?

You can list worst case scenarios until your fingers bleed, doesen't change the fact that closing in effectively and forcing grenadiers out of cover will usually give you the advantge.

You can write all the silly things you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you have no clue about the balance of Soviets because you do not play them.

+123454321 Puppetmaster

This guy is such a Wehrmacht fanatic, that he doesnt noticed the bad balance in this game after the BS Patch.

Aurgel get your lazy ass up and play Soviets to understand!!!

btw Dshka worked fine against grens and ass grens in early... but Late game could be a big problem without 9999 SU-85 against Panthers

Volsky that is a pretty damn good post, perhaps worthy of its own as this is hidden in page 4 now.

I'm not going to make a bloated reply to tell you things you already know, at least I hope you already know and this is just some amateur attempt to get everyone to drink the kool-aid.

Your text is full of hyperbolic nonsense such as the Panther being an anti-infantry platform or Penal Troops easily beaten at range. Just nonsense.

Do grenadiers at long range, in cover, with a rifle nade, win against almost all soviet infantry (guards are a tough nut to crack), yes. Thats only because the soviet player is, for some reason, playing exactly to the grenadiers strengths - thats why shocks have smoke nades, why conscripts/penals have oorah, so they can get close and fight the battle on their terms.

Thats it, thats all I should need to say. Fight grenadiers at range with a unit that should fight close up and you will lose, obvious if you think about it for more than one second.

Thank you for taking my post too fucking literally. And it looks like your head's next stop is right behind your Adam's apple.

Yes of course "Grens win at long range". I think there was something in there about long, medium, and short range. Stop selectively reading to suit your argument. And amateur? Have you coded as a part of several mod teams in vCoH and taking part in balance "QQ" since the good ole' days of vCoH launch? No? Hmph, alright then.

The Panther can in fact be an anti-infantry platform. It has these things called machine guns on it, and, oddly enough, these things are fantastic for flipping the bird at your run-of-the-mill infantryman. Just because the cannon is worth piss all for killing infantry doesn't mean it's terrible at killing infantry.

Volsky that is a pretty damn good post, perhaps worthy of its own as this is hidden in page 4 now.

This you summed it up perfectly. Think it's own there'd worthy.

Own thread* blarg. sorry.

Predictive text strikes again

Smoke grenades + Mortars: Actually a good idea. Already tried this out but if you do not have a mortar, you need shock troops what makes you vulnerable to AC or even halftrack / flamer half track. Also it costs munition to use it. So I have to pay munition just to get in range in order to POTENTIALLY win the fight? German will use riflenade and often kills 4 man in your squad... If you have a mortar, you often get hardcountered (I speak of 2vs2) by some Mortar Half Track. This is even deadlier on maps like Crossing in the Woods, where static gameplay dominates the game flow.

On a slightly related note I would really like to see the mortar smoke barrages have a faster firing rate or something. It seems like the first smoke shell has dissipated before the barrage even ends. It would be a great utility ability to use because of true-sight but it's waaay too slow so I just fire normal barrages instead.

You can write all the silly things you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you have no clue about the balance of Soviets because you do not play them.

+1 lol

http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561197970339613

why should soviets neeed to use more micro when germans can plant their grens in heavy cover and win engagements

that's the only argument i'd need
even if conscripts did win close up, it's still a massive imba.

why should soviets neeed to use more micro when germans can plant their grens in heavy cover and win engagements

that's the only argument i'd need
even if conscripts did win close up, it's still a massive imba.

It just switched, before it is Ostheer required much more micro against those lolotov rain / sniper car / shocks / KV8 crap.

Now I switch back to Soviet and enjoy the fun.