What the .... is up with the germans ?

Just saw two PPsh Conscript squads getting raped by a G43 Gren squad...balance,riiiiight

They were not in cover

Bravus, spajn, VonMecha, how can you write such things? You don't think game is unbalanced?!?!
You are witches and you deserve to be burn on stake!! Power to the soviets!!!!!

This exactly. Currently Soviets are far too Commander dependant, needing specific Commander call ins or upgrades to compete with the Germans by filling up their huge gaps in the counter system that shouldn't even be there in the first place. (KV-1, PPSH/Shocks, IS-2, ISU.) Germans however can 100% play without using a Commander, sure it'll be harder but it's not neccesary because everything on the base faction is more than capable of countering everything the Soviets have, even with Commanders. German commanders can also absolutely hard counter and just smash the Soviets very delicate commander choice. For example if the Soviet goes IS-2 which is needed to compete with Panthers, then the German can go for a Pak 43 and destroy the IS-2. Tigers or Tiger Ace will hard counter KV-1. Any Commander with a one click arty will counter any Howitzer play. Soviets have to be so delicate and careful with their Commander choice because not only is it needed to counter the German core units, but also can just lose the game if you don't pick the right one.

Soviets also lack any consistent AT on the base faction. The only AT for Soviets is AT guns and SU-85's which are incredibly map dependant and are unable to get killing blows because of on most maps how many choke points and shot blockers prevent any kind of chasing. Supporting AT does not work, simple as that as every single supporting AT is inconsistent and entirely unreliable. Guards button which are still Commander specific are negated by instant-popping smoke which almost all of the good and used Commanders have, AT nades are incredibly RNG dependant and just will not penetrate frontal armour enough. You can just say "Get the rear armour" all you like, but by the time you have positioned for the rear armour it means the Panther is already behind the SU-85. Mines are avoidable and often accidently explode to random tank shells unintentionally or a well placed mine that you were depending on to protect your flank gets detonated by a lone Pio squad looking to cap a point. Spamming enough mines to cover all of the flanks and prevent 1 click wonder Blitzkrieg frontal circle strafe means you have to absolutely spam mines everywhere, which makes them so likely to backfire and blow up the Soviets own vehicle if trying to bait a German vehicle into them by trying over them.

The huge issue is how hard Blitzkrieg and smoke completely breaks the dynamic and balance of tank engagements and throw out absolutely and skill, micro, tactics and positioning. Don't need to flank or bait out a tank when you can just press the Blitzkrieg button. I have lost so many games against bad players that I have winning easily until Panthers, Tigers or especially Tiger Ace pop Blitzkrieg and just right click behind my tanks. Guard Buttons ignored by smoke, AT nades don't penetrate, AT gun fires 1 shot until tank is behind Arc. Panther finally hits the mine and gets damaged engine, however damaged engine does not stop Blitzkrieg, damage engine stops the tank from activating Blitzkrieg; Meaning that a Panther with Blitzkrieg that drives over a mine or gets hit by a well executed rear armour Blitzrkieg is still moving at normal speed, because of damage engine speed x2 rather than what the damage engine speed is supposed to be. Bearing in mind how much munitions it costs for the Soviet to support the AT. After spending 100 munitions per guard squad. Button(40), button(40) again because of smoke negating the first button, AT nade(25), AT nade(25) again because the first one didn't penetrate, and several mines(30 each) and Mark Target(80) if you're lucky enough to have it. That's well over 200 munitions for every tank enagement, which doesn't even work. Once the Panther, P4 or Tiger gets the circle strafe on an SU-85 or ISU by pressing Blitzkrieg then you can't excape it, even with a damaged engine. Blitzkrieg is probably the most broken thing at the moment. Fair enough a P4 having Blitzkrieg, but the Panther, Tiger and Tiger Ace having Blitzkrieg is an absolute joke. And as a result even trying to support your tanks with anything other than mines is just a waste of time and money. It's also absurd how Blitzkreig works on reverse move so despite how out of position a tank can get so long as it has Blitzkreig and it's engine it can just pop Blitzkreig and drive away out of everything.

The best part is what do the Soviets get in exchange for the instant free flank or get out of outplayed and caught card? Well when Soviets get vet 1 they can capture points ir if they're lucky can see further! Is-2 capping points is a joke and just lazy design.

Here's a replay to support this. Showing That well prepared and supported Soviet tanks are negated and countered by pressing 3 buttons. Right click down the middle, Blitzkrieg and smoke when the button comes which is too much for Mines, Button, AT nades, kiting and refacing, AT guns, Mark Target. Bearing in mind of course that the German doesn't have to earn the Blitzkrieg on Vet1, because it can be bought with elite infantry.

http://www.coh2.org/replay/15834/pwnagemachine-vs-majorownage

Buffing the IS-2 and ISU is just the wrong path. Soviet needs more versatile and more variety of AT on the base faction, not on their commanders. FOr example Soviets need Penals with Bazookas as an upgrade and the KV-1 on the base faction, either Tier 3 or Tier 4 to give Soviets more options, dynamic and strategies.

Having in view your explanations above, now please continue and tell us how you see the german armor costs (mp plus fuel), debating further what a T34 or Su-85 loss will mean for soviet part and what a P4 or Panther loss will mean for the german part. And this is a serios question.

The Soviet losing the SU-85 means that he has no way to kill the PIV, Ostwind, Panther or Tiger from bleeding models and forcing retreats giving the Germans absolute map control. Without the SU-85 or Commander specific call ins, Soviets have no AT and no means of dealing with the German armour that forces them off the map and bleeds hard. The only other possible AT for Soviet is to plant lots of mines and hoping that the tank drives over the mine in front of an AT gun. Rarely does this actually work.

Looking at the German losing the PIV, Ostwind, Panther or Tiger means that the German has nothing to stop from the SU-85 shelling away at infantry missing 9 out of every 10 shots. The German is able to kill the SU-85 with a nice PGren with Shrek flank that can kill it in 3-4 volleys and if it gets caught by a faust it's easy pickings for the Shrek or Pak. Looking at the T-34's, T'34s actually have good anti infantry so can bleed and force off. However the difference is T-34's can and do drop to Shreks, Paks and Fausts. PIV's and anything above will not drop to AT nades and AT guns unless the German is bad, misplays and gets caught out of position or doesn't pay attention to his tanks.

Another thing to note is that Panzer Fausts will penetrate the frontal armour of a T-34 or SU-85 almost 100% of the time, where as the AT grenades with less range and requiring fuel to unlock have about a 66% chance to penetrate the front armour of a PIV or Ostwind, and a 50% chance to penetrate the Panther. Combining this with Blitzkrieg, Smoke, the higher health, armour and lower penetration of Soviet weaponry mean that controlling German armour is incredibly forgiving where as Soviet armour is insanely punishing and requires delicate and finesse micro.

Germans also have the option of going to PanzerWerfers to deal with Soviet infantry and AT guns after getting the Panther to deny the armour. So even if there are SU-85's on the field that killed a Panther the German can just ignore them by going for a heavy PGren with Shrek play or straight for Panzer Werfers. Katyushas are only on Tier4, so if the Soviet is stuck on tier 3 than Katyushas aren't an option. And it's so rare to see Katyushas anyway because Soviets need to spend all of their fuel on AT, where as Germans can spend Manpower(Paks) and Munitions(Shreks) to deal with AT keeping their fuel for other luxuries such as Panzerwerfers, Ostwinds or Brumbars for example.

The Soviet losing the SU-85 means that he has no way to kill the PIV, Ostwind, Panther or Tiger from bleeding models and forcing retreats giving the Germans absolute map control. Without the SU-85 or Commander specific call ins, Soviets have no AT and no means of dealing with the German armour that forces them off the map and bleeds hard. The only other possible AT for Soviet is to plant lots of mines and hoping that the tank drives over the mine in front of an AT gun. Rarely does this actually work.

Looking at the German losing the PIV, Ostwind, Panther or Tiger means that the German has nothing to stop from the SU-85 shelling away at infantry missing 9 out of every 10 shots. The German is able to kill the SU-85 with a nice PGren with Shrek flank that can kill it in 3-4 volleys and if it gets caught by a faust it's easy pickings for the Shrek or Pak. Looking at the T-34's, T'34s actually have good anti infantry so can bleed and force off. However the difference is T-34's can and do drop to Shreks, Paks and Fausts. PIV's and anything above will not drop to AT nades and AT guns unless the German is bad, misplays and gets caught out of position or doesn't pay attention to his tanks.

Another thing to note is that Panzer Fausts will penetrate the frontal armour of a T-34 or SU-85 almost 100% of the time, where as the AT grenades with less range and requiring fuel to unlock have about a 66% chance to penetrate the front armour of a PIV or Ostwind, and a 50% chance to penetrate the Panther. Combining this with Blitzkrieg, Smoke, the higher health, armour and lower penetration of Soviet weaponry mean that controlling German armour is incredibly forgiving where as Soviet armour is insanely punishing and requires delicate and finesse micro.

Germans also have the option of going to PanzerWerfers to deal with Soviet infantry and AT guns after getting the Panther to deny the armour. So even if there are SU-85's on the field that killed a Panther the German can just ignore them by going for a heavy PGren with Shrek play or straight for Panzer Werfers. Katyushas are only on Tier4, so if the Soviet is stuck on tier 3 than Katyushas aren't an option. And it's so rare to see Katyushas anyway because Soviets need to spend all of their fuel on AT, where as Germans can spend Manpower(Paks) and Munitions(Shreks) to deal with AT keeping their fuel for other luxuries such as Panzerwerfers, Ostwinds or Brumbars for example.

Fair enough. Thanks.

Another thing to note is that Panzer Fausts will penetrate the frontal armour of a T-34 or SU-85 almost 100% of the time, where as the AT grenades with less range and requiring fuel to unlock have about a 66% chance to penetrate the front armour of a PIV or Ostwind, and a 50% chance to penetrate the Panther.

Those numbers don't look right to me.

T34 needs a tiny boost to its penetration.. but most of all the silly 100% engine damage from faust and AT-nades needs to go.. T34 would be in a much better spot if it didnt get engine damage in every engagement

Tanks are getting a redo in the upcoming patch.

Bravus, spajn, VonMecha, how can you write such things? You don't think game is unbalanced?!?!
You are witches and you deserve to be burn on stake!! Power to the soviets!!!!!

The game turn more reality, less god mod, for the 2 sides...

Need more cover, no crazy need for speed, less crazy spam, etc...

For me, need go more in that way!

T34 needs a tiny boost to its penetration.. but most of all the silly 100% engine damage from faust and AT-nades needs to go.. T34 would be in a much better spot if it didnt get engine damage in every engagement

Be glad it does only engine damage. For a weapon that could handle any tank with one hit, soviets are pretty good off with only an engine damage. I have seen Panzerfausts bouncing from the SU-85s front more than once and had to overcome the urge to ram my keyboard into the screen. THAT is silly.

I don´t get why people think Soviet armor should be on par with the Germans´. Better German armor was also the concept in CoH1 and nobody cried to this extend.

Just don´t skip Zis or when you do make sure to go Guards.

The reason why it was fine to have better German armour in Coh1 is because Americans had much superior infantry to Wehrmacht, in Coh2 Soviet and German infantry are pretty even and rather balanced in their own dynamic. Which would be fine if Germans didn't have just outright better Support Weapons and Tanks.

Cardboard, why is it silly for a cheap infatry thrown AT weapon to sometimes not penetrate the frontal armour of whats basically a medium tank. In the realms of the game at least, thats sensible.

Besides, in real life, even shells would bounce off frontal tank armour.. so I dont see a problem? And assault guns like SU85 or Stug would have most of their armour up front.

The reason why it was fine to have better German armour in Coh1 is because Americans had much superior infantry to Wehrmacht, in Coh2 Soviet and German infantry are pretty even and rather balanced in their own dynamic. Which would be fine if Germans didn't have just outright better Support Weapons and Tanks.

I didn't get the same impression in coh1 and I have played it for 6 years. Meaning American infantry was superior but not "much" superior. The power of "grenadier spam" tactic was not to be ignored. More than this, grenadiers and stormtroopers were customizable in a greater extent that the german infantry currently is. In addition, I remember vanilla rangers dying like flies when caught in open by an mg.
German infantry power was given also by the med bunkers that were very different by what we have in coh2. You could build a "zombi" army more quickly and effectively that allied could do.

Cardboard, why is it silly for a cheap infatry thrown AT weapon to sometimes not penetrate the frontal armour of whats basically a medium tank. In the realms of the game at least, thats sensible.

Besides, in real life, even shells would bounce off frontal tank armour.. so I dont see a problem? And assault guns like SU85 or Stug would have most of their armour up front.

Generally tank destroyers had decent frontal armour. Is it wrong that panzerfausts doesn't penetrate SU-85 frontally sometimes, maybe. Is it wrong that AT nades frequently fail to damage a Panthers engine from the rear (sometimes bounces, seems impossible once it has vet) I would say so. I have experienced similiar things with Tigers as well. Russians lack (imo) decent AT aside from the SU-85 that is quite slow and expensive.

Their current AT consists of:

AT Nades - I would say can be unreliable especially if the German uses smoke or blitzkrieg, can be a pain to hit
Guards - Don't do much damage to tanks, button is useful but its very expensive to use (100 + 40 each button, especially when you can blitz / smoke of out it). Doctrinal
Zis - Seems ok but can be unreliable against the front of Panthers and Tigers. Its vet ability is pretty useful and the barrage is really nice so that does make up for it
SU-76 - Barrage is nice, isn't really useful on anything above a Panzer 4 imo. Also lacks health and armour so it can die very easily / fast.
SU-85 - Pretty decent at AT, has a rapid fire rate once vetted, sometimes has penetration issues vs Tigers & Panthers. It is quite slow and dies very easily to shrecks or a blitzing tank
ISU-152 - Great AI damage, does well vs tanks including crew shocks but its very slow and seems prone to flanking a lot. Also expensive. Doctrinal
T-34/76 - Doesn't do well vs Tanks, has penetration problems and pathing issues. Has ram (although I would prefer that this was removed and given something else, a boost perhaps)
T34/85 - Fares much better vs tanks but is doctrinal and 2 of them still can lose to a tiger. Doctrinal
IS-2 - Great AI, does OK vs tanks but is also expensive and will usually lose to a tiger unless given lots of micro or RNG loves you. Doctrinal
KV-1 - Good for soaking damage, not good vs most armour because it can't flank well but still has the same gun as the T34/76. Doctrinal
KV-2 - Awesome AI, again can damage tanks but also slow and doctrinal


Germans have:

Panzerfaust - More penetration than AT nades, doesnt require a specific upgrade, can have issues vs IS-2 / KV-1 (maybe others?)
Panzershrecks - Expensive but do lots of damage to everything soviet has. Still ok vs infantry as well.
Pak 40 - Does ok damage to most things I believe (has penetration problems vs IS-2 / KV-1). Vet ability is imo fantastic, stunning enemy armour can give you enough time to kill it with appropriate support.
Pak 43 - Static and has to be turned, requiring attention to be used well, great range and high damage / penetration. Doctrinal
Stug - Decent price, has good front armour and speed. Upgrable to an MG, improving its AI. Decent vet ability
Panzer IV - Fast and mobile (especially with blitzkrieg). Decent gun and armour, can be upgraded with an MG. Excellent vet ability
Brumbar - Decent frontal armour, seems to be to do well with T34/76 as well as having decent AI.
Panther - Great armour, gun and speed. Poor AI but can be upgraded with an MG to help. Decent vet ability.
Tiger - Expensive but has overall good armour and a decent gun. AI isnt near what an IS-2 can do but still resonable. Decent vs tanks, can upgrade to have an MG. Decent vet ability
Tiger Ace - Really expensive and I think this is pretty balanced (aside from the stun, bit unfair). Decent armour, decent gun. Decent abilities. Doctrinal
Elephant - Expensive and slow. Has a great gun, very good frontal armour. Decent side / rear armour. I find sometimes T-34/76 / 85 cannot penetrate it from the side / rear. Doctrinal

Soviets have 10 AT options, although 6 are doctrinal. Germans have 10, 4 are doctrinal. Soviets do get mark target but it is expensive. Germans get smoke and view range upgrades from some doctrines.

If we compare to USA:

Stickies - Similiar to AT nades I think, don't remember having penetration issues but its been awhile
Rangers - Comes with AT, penetration issues against fronts of tigers / panthers but fine vs others. Had fire up. Could upgrade to have decent AI (imo much better than the guards AI while having armour as well)
Airbourne - Accurate fast firing weapons, although lacking penetration. Had fire up and extra utility (deployment and satchels). I would say OK AI.
57MM - Pretty decent against tanks. AP round ability was really good (too good?)
Shermans - Standard gun was poor, upgrade was reasonable but it was decent at AI.
M10 / Hellcat - Cheap and fast, easy to flank with and was good at infantry crushing (might have been m10 only? I forget)
Pershing - Expensive but a decent all rounder

Now to me, although USA had less choices, I think it overall had stronger choices and the non doctrinal ones were better.

What are peoples thoughts? Have I been accurate with what I wrote or am I really wrong on something?

I think that the T-34/85 should be upgradable from HQ / T3 or something. Remove Ram (I think we all hate it, it relies on rng and ruins your tank). Instead replace it with a boost of some kind, similar to blitzkrieg maybe since due to its lack of penetration, it is meant to flank. I feel blitzkrieg either needs removing or changing in some way (engine overheats or maybe a fuel drop for a period of time) because its too easy for German armour to get out of trouble, especially when it can reverse faster backwards than a T34 can ram going forwards.
Give Soviets better AT infantry. I would much rather pay 120muni for 2 shrecks than 100 muni + 40 to use button which can be escaped from very easily. As soviets if you go T1 and don't pick a guard / partisans doctrine you are without AT for a long time.

^RRs far outpaced Bazookas in terms of accuracy and penetration. The only reason they were meh was if they were facing off against Puma spam. Otherwise, it was because upgraded Rangers tore infantry apart. For pure AT, RR'd AB was the best.

57mm was better than the PaK 38, and AP shells were fine considering you had to use munitions to get them.

M10s were the kings of lawnmowing. P4? Circle it to death. StuG? Circle it to death. Mob of 1000 Grenadiers with Panzershrecks? Bowl through them like Godzilla through downtown Tokyo.

Tanks in CoH2 are just as good at squishing infantry, the problem is that both sides have for their basic infantry have AT weapons which cause engine damage, so the whole affair is pointless.

Tanks in CoH2 are just as good at squishing infantry, the problem is that both sides have for their basic infantry have AT weapons which cause engine damage, so the whole affair is pointless.

Most soviet armour has horrible pathing issues, especially T34's so it makes infantry crushing hard. Germany doesnt really have that problem and can also use the strafe to pin infantry even on retreat and then just run them over.

The Soviet losing the SU-85 means that he has no way to kill the PIV, Ostwind, Panther or Tiger from bleeding models and forcing retreats giving the Germans absolute map control. Without the SU-85 or Commander specific call ins, Soviets have no AT and no means of dealing with the German armour that forces them off the map and bleeds hard. The only other possible AT for Soviet is to plant lots of mines and hoping that the tank drives over the mine in front of an AT gun. Rarely does this actually work.

Looking at the German losing the PIV, Ostwind, Panther or Tiger means that the German has nothing to stop from the SU-85 shelling away at infantry missing 9 out of every 10 shots. The German is able to kill the SU-85 with a nice PGren with Shrek flank that can kill it in 3-4 volleys and if it gets caught by a faust it's easy pickings for the Shrek or Pak. Looking at the T-34's, T'34s actually have good anti infantry so can bleed and force off. However the difference is T-34's can and do drop to Shreks, Paks and Fausts. PIV's and anything above will not drop to AT nades and AT guns unless the German is bad, misplays and gets caught out of position or doesn't pay attention to his tanks.

Another thing to note is that Panzer Fausts will penetrate the frontal armour of a T-34 or SU-85 almost 100% of the time, where as the AT grenades with less range and requiring fuel to unlock have about a 66% chance to penetrate the front armour of a PIV or Ostwind, and a 50% chance to penetrate the Panther. Combining this with Blitzkrieg, Smoke, the higher health, armour and lower penetration of Soviet weaponry mean that controlling German armour is incredibly forgiving where as Soviet armour is insanely punishing and requires delicate and finesse micro.

Germans also have the option of going to PanzerWerfers to deal with Soviet infantry and AT guns after getting the Panther to deny the armour. So even if there are SU-85's on the field that killed a Panther the German can just ignore them by going for a heavy PGren with Shrek play or straight for Panzer Werfers. Katyushas are only on Tier4, so if the Soviet is stuck on tier 3 than Katyushas aren't an option. And it's so rare to see Katyushas anyway because Soviets need to spend all of their fuel on AT, where as Germans can spend Manpower(Paks) and Munitions(Shreks) to deal with AT keeping their fuel for other luxuries such as Panzerwerfers, Ostwinds or Brumbars for example.

+1

Fanboys vs fanboys here. Why dont you just game it out - switch factions and play. Ill watch it if you stream.

sov whinegirls act like zis doesnt exist and paks are super weapons.