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HOLY POTATOES !!! patch 3/25

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25 Mar 2014, 20:48 PM
#201
avatar of BeltFedWombat
Patrion 14

Posts: 951

I'll wait until I play, but atm this patch doesn't seem very *incremental* to me.
25 Mar 2014, 20:50 PM
#202
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

The Soviet's are designed to lack flexibility relative to the Germans. You aren't meant to get more than 1 late tier building.


Why not? It's a terrible design. Once the german builds up counters to the soviets tech, the soviets are fucked.

I understand you are a developer, is this correct?

Can you explain to me how this:

'Player 1 chooses unit X -> Player 2 chooses the counter to unit X -> Player 1 can't tech switch to counter Player 2's unit and is now fucked'

Is preferable to this:

'Player 1 chooses unit X -> Player 2 chooses the counter to unit X -> Player 1 tech switches to unit Y to counter player 2's unit -> Player 2 responds in kind -> etc.'


Do you really think it's more interesting to see a T3 soviet player spam moreT34/76s for rams against a german player who responds to his tier choice with a tiger? Do you really think that this is better then letting the soviet have the option to go for T4, and watching the german then tech switch to deal with this new situation?

25 Mar 2014, 21:04 PM
#203
avatar of JHeartless

Posts: 1637

Capacity_Gear. Railway Artillery Spam...FTW.....
25 Mar 2014, 21:09 PM
#204
avatar of Capacity_gear
Donator 11

Posts: 87

Capacity_Gear. Railway Artillery Spam...FTW.....


lol yeah that's an even better return for cost
25 Mar 2014, 21:11 PM
#205
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

I do have a concern about the fuel cost of t-3/ t-4 for soviets, 140fu for each, however its nothing to do with its comparison to the german tech.

My worry is this:

Guys builds tiger, rushes base. Now as it stands this is usually a waste, may get a squad or 2 before dieing and maybe a building at a little inconvenience, but over all its cost incurred to its damage done is a bad decision.

Now a tiger rushes base,. kills a t-3/t-4 building, bam! 140fuel damage done + the mp,. if it kills 2 of them bam! 280 fuel + mp damage done to a target that cannot move or fight.

Now that isn't such a bad return, add in a lucky squad wipe and your evens with cost, add to that to the fact it will cause you enemy micro and time to deal with it why wouldn't you do it?
Its a cost effective suicide that has a very very good chance of paying off. Loosing the mp and fuel cost of a tiger compared to the fuel cost of t3-t4 plus the engi's and time to build seem like a good trade to me.


It takes quite a while for a tiger to destroy base structures. If you cannot kill it before it does the damage that is your own fault. If a tiger is threatening to rush into your base retreat a conscript squad and get an AT gun if you have nothing else.

Also keep in mind tiger has to make it to your base. You should be able to damage the engine before it gets there and, at minimum, force it off.
25 Mar 2014, 21:17 PM
#206
avatar of Thebazookajoe

Posts: 59



Why not? It's a terrible design. Once the german builds up counters to the soviets tech, the soviets are fucked.

I understand you are a developer, is this correct?

Can you explain to me how this:

'Player 1 chooses unit X -> Player 2 chooses the counter to unit X -> Player 1 can't tech switch to counter Player 2's unit and is now fucked'

Is preferable to this:

'Player 1 chooses unit X -> Player 2 chooses the counter to unit X -> Player 1 tech switches to unit Y to counter player 2's unit -> Player 2 responds in kind -> etc.'


Do you really think it's more interesting to see a T3 soviet player spam moreT34/76s for rams against a german player who responds to his tier choice with a tiger? Do you really think that this is better then letting the soviet have the option to go for T4, and watching the german then tech switch to deal with this new situation?



Well, the beauty of coh is that you don't always need hard counters ;)

If you have T2, a couple of ZIS guns work just as well, especially now that (p)grens can't just walk in and kill them unpunished. You just need a different way of playing.

If you gamble for really heavy AI to push your opponent off the map early and go for T1-T3, that's a tradeoff and a gamble you make. Strong in the early game, but weak to a comeback with heavy german armor.

Also, capacity gear is not negative all the time. This really is a miracle patch :D
25 Mar 2014, 21:23 PM
#207
avatar of Capacity_gear
Donator 11

Posts: 87




Also, capacity gear is not negative all the time. This really is a miracle patch :D



Its true, I'm quite the optimist!!! i love the look of the new patch.

25 Mar 2014, 21:26 PM
#208
avatar of Senseo1990

Posts: 317


Now a tiger rushes base,. kills a t-3/t-4 building, bam! 140fuel damage done + the mp,. if it kills 2 of them bam! 280 fuel + mp damage done to a target that cannot move or fight.


I agree.

I already had an issue with that with the current prices. German tier upgrades are part of the price but have the major advantage that they cannot be destroyed. An unnecessary disadvantage for the soviets, which is why I reduced the soviet building prices by 50% if that building was already build once in my small gameplay-test mod a few months ago
25 Mar 2014, 21:43 PM
#209
avatar of Pepsi

Posts: 622 | Subs: 1

I couldn't find the M10 bug fix in this patchnote ?









trololo !
25 Mar 2014, 21:46 PM
#210
avatar of Capacity_gear
Donator 11

Posts: 87



I agree.

I already had an issue with that with the current prices. German tier upgrades are part of the price but have the major advantage that they cannot be destroyed. An unnecessary disadvantage for the soviets, which is why I reduced the soviet building prices by 50% if that building was already build once in my small gameplay-test mod a few months ago


TBH i only have a concern about it, which is based of conjecture and a specific situation, my real concern is this being capitalized as a better use of armor, or even artillery, avoiding the lines and making a b-line for the base given the option, as the fuel damage is quite high with a fixed target

But these are just ramblings of a sub-par noob, the game will change in many ways so i wouldn't call this an issue,. even less so as we've yet to play the new patch.
25 Mar 2014, 22:07 PM
#211
avatar of mas1er

Posts: 38

140 fuel means we will not have t3 and t4 together in one game. If it is designed and intended by devs that we can't have both, then ok. But still I don't know why.

Solution to this issue might be if we build t3, then t4 will cost only half fuel or only 50 fuel. And vice versa, if we build t4 then cost of t3 will be smaller.
25 Mar 2014, 22:13 PM
#212
avatar of Capacity_gear
Donator 11

Posts: 87

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2014, 22:07 PMmas1er
140 fuel means we will not have t3 and t4 together in one game. If it is designed and intended by devs that we can't have both, then ok. But still I don't know why.

Solution to this issue might be if we build t3, then t4 will cost only half fuel or only 50 fuel. And vice versa, if we build t4 then cost of t3 will be smaller.


I dont think this is an issue just yet, simply because we don't know right now how this will translate to gameplay with all the other changes also.

I think we can all agree that sovs have a stronger early game and this would translate to greater map control and therefore resource income, and this could off-set the cost increase, bearing in mind the Germans have also had a tech cost increase, not as much granted, but maybe enough to balance things out?

Again, we won't know until we've all had a few days to play the new patch
25 Mar 2014, 22:14 PM
#213
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2014, 22:07 PMmas1er
140 fuel means we will not have t3 and t4 together in one game. If it is designed and intended by devs that we can't have both, then ok. But still I don't know why.

Solution to this issue might be if we build t3, then t4 will cost only half fuel or only 50 fuel. And vice versa, if we build t4 then cost of t3 will be smaller.


Soviets only stand a chance with combined arms. T3 is practically AI, T4 is mainly taken for the SU-85. If you get one of them, it is hard to replace the usefulness of the other.
25 Mar 2014, 22:18 PM
#214
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1



Well, the beauty of coh is that you don't always need hard counters ;)

If you have T2, a couple of ZIS guns work just as well, especially now that (p)grens can't just walk in and kill them unpunished. You just need a different way of playing.

If you gamble for really heavy AI to push your opponent off the map early and go for T1-T3, that's a tradeoff and a gamble you make. Strong in the early game, but weak to a comeback with heavy german armor.


This would be fine if both factions were designed this way. But they are not. You don't always need hard counters, but when the german player gets hard counters, the soviet player can't return the favor. Having a late game that clearly favors one side does not make for good gameplay.
25 Mar 2014, 22:19 PM
#215
avatar of Sarantini
Honorary Member Badge
Donator 22

Posts: 2181

I guess we will have to wait what the next patch brings for vehicle gameplay. I think they hinted that the next patch will be about that right?
25 Mar 2014, 22:22 PM
#216
avatar of Thebazookajoe

Posts: 59



This would be fine if both factions were designed this way. But they are not. You don't always need hard counters, but when the german player gets hard counters, the soviet player can't return the favor. Having a late game that clearly favors one side does not make for good gameplay.


Look at vcoh, wehrmacht was waaaaaay more favoured in the late game back then, and everybody loves vcoh.

But soviet late game can be very strong too, with call in units for example.

What hard counters does ost player have then? A really expensive panther, that can be crippled on one well placed cheap mine and finished of by two at guns? I think soviet will be even more about using combined arms and proper unit placement, which i am really looking forward too.

But as people have said before, just play the patch fora couple of days first, because we basically can't say shit about it right now.
25 Mar 2014, 22:23 PM
#217
avatar of Capacity_gear
Donator 11

Posts: 87



This would be fine if both factions were designed this way. But they are not. You don't always need hard counters, but when the german player gets hard counters, the soviet player can't return the favor. Having a late game that clearly favors one side does not make for good gameplay.


Owww i dunno, i think such things make for the most interesting gameplay,.. mirror factions with the ability to counter each other easily, now that would be boring gameplay
25 Mar 2014, 22:24 PM
#218
avatar of Capacity_gear
Donator 11

Posts: 87

Patch has dropped!!!!!
25 Mar 2014, 22:26 PM
#219
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 927

anyone else get error code 55 when try to install the patch?
25 Mar 2014, 22:28 PM
#220
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

The Soviet's are designed to lack flexibility relative to the Germans. You aren't meant to get more than 1 late tier building.

So soviet goes t1t4 and german gets elephant. I suppose soviet is supposed to click concede at this point, right? Other then that i cant wait to play with the path. I really hope penals are usable now and cant wait to see new osttruppen. Have a concern about partisans thou. Upped costs but no hp buff after increased lethality?
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