Snipers

Sigh.

Im so tired of soviet snipers. Really doesnt make me want to play as Germans anymore. Im primarly a 1v1 / 2v2 player. And i prefer to play soviets. But every game i play with Germans i see soviet snipers. And its the same thing over and over again. Untouchable double snipers who hide behind tanks and infantry force insta retreats with just 1 volley. People say that a HT helps. It helps to somehow stay on the field, but i doesnt solve the sniper problem. It also makes you bleed mp. People say that one should use mortar halftracks. Mortars are pretty much a diceroll. Incendiary shots dont do enough damage fast enough to reliably work. People say that G43 can counter snipers. How, when you need to retreat because those snipers instantly killed 2 of the squad members? Artillery comes way too late. Vet 1 german sniper doesnt always work, and i need to either play extremely carefully and somehow get him to Vet 1 or choose the Elite doctrine (which i still find to be broken). Flanking often doesnt work because your well trained Grens cant hit ****. Or they just sprint away. Yep, a sprinting 2 man sniper team.

I think that reducing the squad size to 1 member would solve everything. You could then balance the snipers by their stats. Bigger squad sizes on support weapons are somehow fine, but 2 man (or woman) sniper squads arent. It makes them stupidly durable, immune to counter sniping (except a lucky vet 1 incend shot) and to top it off, even more durable with a sprinting vet 1 ability.

I dont even bother 1v1ing with Germans anymore, im just too scared of the snipers. And when i play soviets, my main strat on most maps consists of 2 snipers, 3 cons, 1 guard and SU's. GG

tl;dr // Soviet Snipers need to be either fixed or balanced in another way. 2 man squads are ruining the balance.

I dont even bother with scout cars because those are a joke.

#heatseekingatnades

Scout cars aren't a joke. They run the early game vs Soviet tier 1 play.

Snipers could be nerfed a bit but reducing it to 1 man isn't the way to go.

I was thinking perhaps a 2 sniper hard cap for both factions, and not being able to garrison M3A1.

After watching some of the replays in the 2v2 tournament it doesnt seem as snipers dictate the game. Just one of these games featured two snipers at the same time and they lost. I got problems with ostheer sniper if I go a heavy tier 2 build as soviets. But I guess I just have to learn to counter it.

The sniper clown car is the real problem, not the snipers by themselves.

In 1v1 the problem is PPSH + snipers. There's no way to counter it without the Soviet player really screwing up, the manpower drain is just too significant. They need to either nerf sniper firing speed again, or preferably the PPSH, it's just too good now vs LMGs or G43s.

In 1v1 the problem is PPSH + snipers. There's no way to counter it without the Soviet player really screwing up, the manpower drain is just too significant. They need to either nerf sniper firing speed again, or preferably the PPSH, it's just too good now vs LMGs or G43s.

Agreed with the lmg upgraded grens but not for the g42 upgrade. snipers are just death meath waiting to happen with g43 spam. that said counter snipe can be done. especially when the german sniper gets to vet 1 and uses fire bullets

After watching some of the replays in the 2v2 tournament it doesnt seem as snipers dictate the game. Just one of these games featured two snipers at the same time and they lost. I got problems with ostheer sniper if I go a heavy tier 2 build as soviets. But I guess I just have to learn to counter it.

Thats maybe because the maps in the 2v2 tournament were meant to be solely played 1v1 thus resulting in a giant clusterfuck dominated by mortars and artillery.

It's funny how snipers are countered by g43 actually. On long range.

Yeah it's a boring meta when every game you have G43s vs snipers/ppsh.

Believe me if they were playing this tournament on Moscow, you'd see sniper cars in great numbers.

That said one of my mates and I have come up with what we think is the perfect build to counter the 2v2 double soviet sniper, but it can be countered with good car usage...

I mostly agree with the OP and since I am too lazy to type too much, let me link another thread with my suggestions: http://www.coh2.org/topic/14104/sssss

Losing a man of the squad should be drastic. I´m trying to be a bit creative here.
If you lose the spotter, you lose LOS. If you lose the "sniper", you could either go for a reduce range, ROF, OR accuracy. IDK, your choice.

I only hope that IF there is a sniper tweak/nerf, there should also be a buff for light vehicles and Penals Battallions reliability.

More and more I'm thinking Jaeger Infantry is the commander to have in your roster to counter snipers. Ambush Camouflage has its issues but with grens you can faust M3's and pounce on snipers from cover.

Whenever I encounter Soviet Sniper spam by a novice player, it's easy to counter. My standard start is pretty much Grenadier spam into T2 and go from there, so I generally have a lot of troops I can be moving around with and none I need to really babysit. When I see a Sniper, I immediately drop what I'm doing to tech to T2 and get either a 222 or FHT, then hunt them down with assistance from my Grenadiers.

Whenever a skilled player does Sniper spam, I'm generally pretty fucked, and I don't see any way to counter it that doesn't involve getting a mortar, hiding it, and praying. Maybe Osttruppen spam. Maybe.

Increasing the reinforce cost for 1 sniper squad member to like 180mp would balance it out a bit. It essentially means that it would be a big manpower hit if you decide to reinforce. If you wouldnt, it would be a risk to lose the whole sniper squad.

Still wouldnt solve the problems with the reliable counters on the German side.

The problem as I see it is that even though both snipers can kill squads at the same rate, the soviet sniper when paired in two can force a retreat on squads after only one shot, while the german must take two. The russians can give chase forcing the sniper to begin running and stop firing, but the germans can't take that risk as one more shot will end in squad wipe.

Ideally the solution would be for german squads to have 5 men, but this late into balancing I think that would throw a huge wrench into all the balancing done until now.

But what we can do is simulate it. They should increased the soviets sniper's rof 33%(same as the german), but give them a 33% chance to miss their target.

What this would do is create chances for the german squads to give chase after missed shots. Two sniper squads won't reliably wipe units in only two shot and you can no longer rely on that fact if they give chase with only two men. It would also help sniper battles a bit as the scout sniper might miss the enemy sniper completely and give up their position, and while in the M3 the miss chance would stack to a measly 47% chance to hit. All while the soviet squad doesn't actually lose any dps in the long run if allowed to fire uninterupted.

This would also better represent the dynamic of germans being better trained as the german snipers would never miss as compared to te soviets who miss sometimes.

I know how that would add RNG which everyone on here seems to hate with a passion, but I think that's a better alternative to any of the other solutions I've seen.

The problem as I see it is that even though both snipers can kill squads at the same rate, the soviet sniper when paired in two can force a retreat on squads after only one shot, while the german must take two. The russians can give chase forcing the sniper to begin running and stop firing, but the germans can't take that risk as one more shot will end in squad wipe.

Ideally the solution would be for german squads to have 5 men, but this late into balancing I think that would throw a huge wrench into all the balancing done until now.

But what we can do is simulate it. They should increased the soviets sniper's rof 33%(same as the german), but give them a 33% chance to miss their target.

What this would do is create chances for the german squads to give chase after missed shots. Two sniper squads won't reliably wipe units in only two shot and you can no longer rely on that fact if they give chase with only two men. It would also help sniper battles a bit as the scout sniper might miss the enemy sniper completely and give up their position, and while in the M3 the miss chance would stack to a measly 47% chance to hit. All while the soviet squad doesn't actually lose any dps in the long run if allowed to fire uninterupted.

This would also better represent the dynamic of germans being better trained as the german snipers would never miss as compared to te soviets who miss sometimes.

I know how that would add RNG which everyone on here seems to hate with a passion, but I think that's a better alternative to any of the other solutions I've seen.

As you already said, it would create more RNG.
And i really wouldnt like to pay 360mp for a unit that doesnt even hit reliably, especially a sniper.
I think that something like this would further dumb down the game and increase the impact of RNG in match, instead of actual skill.
You shouldnt be punished for microing a sniper well.

I still think that a reduction of the squad size would solve the problem.
Assymmetrical balance really isnt appopriate here, snipers always have been high impact units bleeding your mp, and each faction should be able to countersnipe the other sniper with one shot. Snipers would then be balanced by their stats.

Adding a early bike unit would also be good, but it wouldnt solve the problem in the late - early game or mid game as heatseeking AT nades and Guards would be there.

Reducing the squad size really seems like the best solution to me.

More and more I'm thinking Jaeger Infantry is the commander to have in your roster to counter snipers. Ambush Camouflage has its issues but with grens you can faust M3's and pounce on snipers from cover.

Jaeger inf is good, but I feel like it needs a munitions cost decrease for the sprint and camo abilities. It sacrifices pretty much all late game strength for some mid game utility for your infantry. That alone is enough of a trade off, ze Germans shouldn't be required to spend their precious munis just to make their commander choice useful.

As you already said, it would create more RNG.
And i really wouldnt like to pay 360mp for a unit that doesnt even hit reliably, especially a sniper.
I think that something like this would further dumb down the game and increase the impact of RNG in match, instead of actual skill.
You shouldnt be punished for microing a sniper well.

I still think that a reduction of the squad size would solve the problem.
Assymmetrical balance really isnt appopriate here, snipers always have been high impact units bleeding your mp, and each faction should be able to countersnipe the other sniper with one shot. Snipers would then be balanced by their stats.

Adding a early bike unit would also be good, but it wouldnt solve the problem in the late - early game or mid game as heatseeking AT nades and Guards would be there.

Reducing the squad size really seems like the best solution to me.

At guns and cannons miss armor around 30% of the time, infantry miss all the time. In fact snipers are the ONLY unit who can hit 100% of the time. In fact snipers in vCOH had to chance to miss as well. If the solution to the problem is to add a bit of RNG to the only unit that doesn't have any, over losing everything that makes the unit unique. Ill take a bit of RNG. If you really wanted a game where every single outcome is determined by player control there are plenty of games out there, but this isn't it.

I really wish we could put to rest the suggestion of one man snipers as it doesn't solve the core issue (scout car + snipers) and would devolve infantry combat into sniping and counter-sniping a la vCoh.

At guns and cannons miss armor around 30% of the time, infantry miss all the time. In fact snipers are the ONLY unit who can hit 100% of the time. In fact snipers in vCOH had to chance to miss as well. If the solution to the problem is to add a bit of RNG to the only unit that doesn't have any, over losing everything that makes the unit unique. Ill take a bit of RNG. If you really wanted a game where every single outcome is determined by player control there are plenty of games out there, but this isn't it.

Sorry if I was a bit abrasive in my last post, but my point remians the same. A 66% hit chance isn't all that different then lots of other units and is no way different. Also having a measly 45% chance in the scout car would really incurage people not to use it as much.

I'm all against game deciding RNG like ram as well, but if there is a perfectly good solution that adds just a little bit it, I think it's better then copy-pasting units which in my opinion dumbs down the game. Not all cases of RNG are bad.