Penal Battalions THE THREAD!

Another interesting idea from Steam Forums I am reposting here:

Actually, I just thought of something that would make the penals awesome. Their main problem is that other infantry units can just run up to them mow them now in melee, because they are squishy as hell.

How about giving them the Gw43 ability from CoH1? Munitions cost to slow a chosen infantry unit after concentrating fire at them.
Could be interesting to use defensively and even more interesting to use offensively together with a flame-thrower.

Soviet need T2 for ZiS-3. T1 start is hard and if someone use it, want snipers. Another 360MP for another AI unit with no AT option is foolish.

Soviet need T2 for ZiS-3. T1 start is hard and if someone use it, want snipers. Another 360MP for another AI unit with no AT option is foolish.

What hard? I reached top 50 with less than 5% of games getting that shit field gun.

What hard? I reached top 50 with less than 5% of games getting that shit field gun.

From perspektive team games. In 3v3 snd 4v4 you meet tanks early. One of opponents usualy fast teching for PzIV or Ostwind.

Soviet need T2 for ZiS-3. T1 start is hard and if someone use it, want snipers. Another 360MP for another AI unit with no AT option is foolish.

So what price would you suggest?

So what price would you suggest?

I play mostly Soviets. I'd leave it on the testers.

So basically we're suggesting an initial price reduction, 360 -> 320.
Possibly a reduction in upkeep cost.
And some minor AT ability at vet?

(On that, I was just thinking that they could have an AT ability that has quite a short range [smaller than AT nade], but disables the vehicles main gun. That way you could use them as a medium/long range unit that can punish vehicles that push into your lines, or use them as a tool for epic flanks, again punishing vehicles. It would also serve to delay (The FHT would just be able to drive away and get repairs) over aggressive use of say the FHT against t1, which still punishing you with good micro.) My one concern would be snipers + Penals obviously becoming a huge problem if you keep Penals sniper sitting. However considering this is a ~700MP investment, and would be vastly outranged/outgunned/out manouvered by the SC, it could be mitigated.

Edit: This would also synergise well with Ram.

If I sum it up, penal battalions are suicide squad. They got flamethrower and satchel charge, they got enough options to be on par with the other russian units. Enough dps as it's pretty good medium-long range. What they need is a slight survivability upgrade. They're good early game but it's the medium-late game that suffers because they die QUICK. How about armor upgrade that cost munition? Not some good body armor op stuff, just some slight buff to make it viable in late game and not being affordable in early game because they are fine there.

If I sum it up, penal battalions are suicide squad.

Stop saying that line, its the single biggest delusion in the whole CoH2 since closed beta.
They are 360mp, T1(or T2 if we assume conscripts being T1 since they are equal to grens, which are T1 as well) 9pop unit. They are just as much a suicide squad as Pgrens are.

320 cost would be a great first step for them.

My penal burns and flames sometimes.. Squad...

If I sum it up, penal battalions are suicide squad. They got flamethrower and satchel charge, they got enough options to be on par with the other russian units. Enough dps as it's pretty good medium-long range. What they need is a slight survivability upgrade. They're good early game but it's the medium-late game that suffers because they die QUICK. How about armor upgrade that cost munition? Not some good body armor op stuff, just some slight buff to make it viable in late game and not being affordable in early game because they are fine there.

They are *not* viable early game. Pure conspam is harder to counter than penal squads mixed in with the cons, scales BETTER later on with ppsh doctrines and even without ppsh scales about as well as making penals. All you need to counter penals is a single upgunned gren squad. Or an MG. Or a T2 vehicle. Though with a flamer penals can sometimes fight off the grens/PGs. Sometimes.

I use penals all the time. But this is purely for the sake of using them, I know that I'd do far better just skipping them completely atleast with doctrines that have any of the following: shocks, guards, ppsh. And even then you'd probably be better off with maxims in most situations.

So basically we're suggesting an initial price reduction, 360 -> 320.
Possibly a reduction in upkeep cost.
And some minor AT ability at vet?

(On that, I was just thinking that they could have an AT ability that has quite a short range [smaller than AT nade], but disables the vehicles main gun. That way you could use them as a medium/long range unit that can punish vehicles that push into your lines, or use them as a tool for epic flanks, again punishing vehicles. It would also serve to delay (The FHT would just be able to drive away and get repairs) over aggressive use of say the FHT against t1, which still punishing you with good micro.) My one concern would be snipers + Penals obviously becoming a huge problem if you keep Penals sniper sitting. However considering this is a ~700MP investment, and would be vastly outranged/outgunned/out manouvered by the SC, it could be mitigated.

Edit: This would also synergise well with Ram.

Wow thats an interesting idea. That would totally suck to be on the recieving end of I would want it to be expensive as all hell.

When my penal is unsupported and gets into action, I pay for it dearly. ...squad

Number one reason I ever used ram before it was nerfed to hell was for destroying the maingun on an enemy tank.

Nothing else was more important than disabling the gun on german tanks. Immobilization or engine damage was secondary to eliminating the damage output.

Implementing an ability that disabled the main gun would necessitate a removal or rebalancing of abilities like button and ram.

Button <-> Ram <-> Disable main gun

Any two and you have ensured methods for disabling german armor. Honestly I kinda like that sort of reliability. However I personally feel that what would be MOST useful would be the ability to damage or destroy tanks ability to rotate their turrets.

Forget anything else, if turret rotation could get slowed or even stopped viz critical damage, then a whole new element of vehicle facing and positioning would be highlighted.

A panther with it's gun stuck to the side would have to make a choice between trying to fight more or facing the wrong side of its armor, etc. IMO that's a whole lot more interesting than trying to get point and click abilities to fire.

Number one reason I ever used ram before it was nerfed to hell was for destroying the maingun on an enemy tank.

Nothing else was more important than disabling the gun on german tanks. Immobilization or engine damage was secondary to eliminating the damage output.

Implementing an ability that disabled the main gun would necessitate a removal or rebalancing of abilities like button and ram.

Button <-> Ram <-> Disable main gun

Any two and you have ensured methods for disabling german armor. Honestly I kinda like that sort of reliability. However I personally feel that what would be MOST useful would be the ability to damage or destroy tanks ability to rotate their turrets.

Forget anything else, if turret rotation could get slowed or even stopped viz critical damage, then a whole new element of vehicle facing and positioning would be highlighted.

A panther with it's gun stuck to the side would have to make a choice between trying to fight more or facing the wrong side of its armor, etc. IMO that's a whole lot more interesting than trying to get point and click abilities to fire.

Turn it into an Assault gun. Like throwing a sticky on the turret ring.

Anything that messes with Armor from Penals like this I would want to be close range. Like was said early an ability to punish over extension without support.

No more Panther convoys without consequence?

Though liberal use of land mines makes this happen too.

I like that idea better than disable. More skill involved and a choice factor.

When my penal is unsupported and gets into action, I pay for it dearly. ...squad

Sometimes my penals don't work or explodes too early ... Squad.

Wow thats an interesting idea. That would totally suck to be on the recieving end of I would want it to be expensive as all hell.

The idea would be that it would come with Vet 1, meaning that you'd have to build some penals and keep them alive. But if you could do that you would have a niche unit that would combine well with either t3 (T34 rams) or t4 (by punishing tanks that pushed deep into your lines looking to snipe your SU-76's with a combo of AT nade/"penal main gun disable").

Number one reason I ever used ram before it was nerfed to hell was for destroying the maingun on an enemy tank.

Nothing else was more important than disabling the gun on german tanks. Immobilization or engine damage was secondary to eliminating the damage output.

Implementing an ability that disabled the main gun would necessitate a removal or rebalancing of abilities like button and ram.

Button <-> Ram <-> Disable main gun

Any two and you have ensured methods for disabling german armor. Honestly I kinda like that sort of reliability. However I personally feel that what would be MOST useful would be the ability to damage or destroy tanks ability to rotate their turrets.

Forget anything else, if turret rotation could get slowed or even stopped viz critical damage, then a whole new element of vehicle facing and positioning would be highlighted.

A panther with it's gun stuck to the side would have to make a choice between trying to fight more or facing the wrong side of its armor, etc. IMO that's a whole lot more interesting than trying to get point and click abilities to fire.

Button is a doctrinal ability meaning you have to pick a build with guards in it for it to work, and Ram is far from a reliable main gun disable.

As far as the disable gun ability, it would have a ridiculously small range, meaning that you would basically have to be sitting on top of tank IOT to do it, meaning that you would A) have to pull off a really good flank, or B) disable the engine first.

Now, this is also combined with the fact that Penal squads are extremely fragile, meaning if they have any sort of AI capability they are going to get chewed up and you're going to lose them, which you then don't have the ability to instantly replace that ability as it would come at Vet 1, meaning you need to build another 360 (320 with decrease) squad, get them vetted against presumably vet 2/3 Grens/Pgrens, before you could do it again.
[edit: you could make the ability work like a demo charge, with a faster set up time during which they take additional damage]

I just think it would give penals a bit more of a niche. There would then be a point in combining a penal squad in with your con squads knowing that if you could keep that penal squad alive it's going to pay off later when the powerful Ostheer armour rolls out.

Finally, this would give you an opportunity to nerf the Ram that everyone keeps complaining about slightly, or take away some of the randomness from it, while still maintaining the ability to disable German tanks offensive capabilities.

The idea would be that it would come with Vet 1, meaning that you'd have to build some penals and keep them alive. But if you could do that you would have a niche unit that would combine well with either t3 (T34 rams) or t4 (by punishing tanks that pushed deep into your lines looking to snipe your SU-76's with a combo of AT nade/"penal main gun disable").



Button is a doctrinal ability meaning you have to pick a build with guards in it for it to work, and Ram is far from a reliable main gun disable.

As far as the disable gun ability, it would have a ridiculously small range, meaning that you would basically have to be sitting on top of tank IOT to do it, meaning that you would A) have to pull off a really good flank, or B) disable the engine first.

Now, this is also combined with the fact that Penal squads are extremely fragile, meaning if they have any sort of AI capability they are going to get chewed up and you're going to lose them, which you then don't have the ability to instantly replace that ability as it would come at Vet 1, meaning you need to build another 360 (320 with decrease) squad, get them vetted against presumably vet 2/3 Grens/Pgrens, before you could do it again.

I just think it would give penals a bit more of a niche. There would then be a point in combining a penal squad in with your con squads knowing that if you could keep that penal squad alive it's going to pay off later when the powerful Ostheer armour rolls out.

Finally, this would give you an opportunity to nerf the Ram that everyone keeps complaining about slightly, or take away some of the randomness from it, while still maintaining the ability to disable German tanks offensive capabilities.

Damn thats a Win Win Win I would say. Something like that shouldnt be spammed but at Vet 1 that would probably work well.

And I would want Penals alot more if they could do something like this.

I really like the disabling or otherwise impairing the turret rotation idea. It's new and seems like it could be interesting without being dumb like ram.

Maybe on weapons that don't have a turret it could cause the main gun destroyed. Or perhaps better yet main gun damaged and top gunner killed. Accuracy drops a lot / scatter rises a lot and it can misfire and basically do nothing (old M10 bug).

In general I think the less binary outcomes there are the better becomes it leaves more choices available. The Ostheer player can choose to all in the tank trying to finish something or back it out vs being forced to just back it out.

I'm pretty sure there was a turret jam critical back in alpha, so mechanic is already in game.