Grenadiers: 5 man squads?
21 Feb 2014, 08:54 AM
#1
Posts: 4928
Basically because Grenadiers are easily wiped and often forced to retreat early due to their small squads, why not think about increasing their model count to 5? You could also decrease their reinforcement to 24MP, and decrease their armour slightly to balance out the extra man. Assault Grenadiers have 5 men and it has been shown to give them much more staying power while being far less likely to get wiped in a flash due to bunching or unlucky dice-rolls.
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII
> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
21 Feb 2014, 09:18 AM
#2
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
And increasing soviet sniper ROF, lowering kar98 accuracy, lowering armor to 1.1-1.2 or increasing initial mp cost?
Its not as simple as you make it seem. Just as well as its impossible to happen.
Its not as simple as you make it seem. Just as well as its impossible to happen.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
21 Feb 2014, 09:27 AM
#3
Posts: 1003
Conscripts vs grenadiers are best ballanced units in game.
I want to have the same chance, to win for each side.
21 Feb 2014, 09:29 AM
#4
Posts: 2807 | Subs: 6
if you want grens as a 5 man squad then conscript also should be increased to 7 or 8
21 Feb 2014, 21:25 PM
#5
Posts: 503
Permanently Banned4 is fine, cons at 6 ok...
No more.
Have the assault grens with 5, but with mp40, no more words.
No more.
Have the assault grens with 5, but with mp40, no more words.
21 Feb 2014, 23:16 PM
#6
Posts: 598
If that's the case let's also make conscripts and guards 8 men squads to compensate for the extra firepower of the grenadier. Also make every individual infantry die faster by making small arms more accurate so it doesn't look like they're shooting blanks at each other. Also increase armor for the Panzer Grenadiers to 2. Good ideas?
22 Feb 2014, 00:14 AM
#7
Posts: 4928
And increasing soviet sniper ROF
And then Panzergrenadiers were worthless.
lowering kar98 accuracy, lowering armor to 1.1-1.2
Overnerf much? Just lower armour should do, fights would be equal, if a bit faster. (lowering accuracy would also be a stealth-nerf to Partisans)
increasing initial mp cost?
Because Conscripts cost more for having 6 men.
If that's the case let's also make conscripts and guards 8 men squads to compensate for the extra firepower of the grenadier.
You wouldn't need to compensate with larger Soviet squads if you reduce the armour, (they would take damage more often) which is exactly what I suggested.
I just thought it worked in CoH1 (Rifle vs Volk dynamic), it worked with AG's, I can't see why it wouldn't work with the underdog Grenadiers. Trade fire resistance for sustainability.
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII
> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
22 Feb 2014, 01:53 AM
#8
Posts: 1637
Make them spread out more and all Ostheer problems dissolve away into the ether.
I wouldn't like 5 man squads because now all of a sudden the Ostheer sniper is alot better when compared to the soviet.
As it is at Vet 0 I find myself yelling FIRE ALREADY at my on screen sniper....
I wouldn't like 5 man squads because now all of a sudden the Ostheer sniper is alot better when compared to the soviet.
As it is at Vet 0 I find myself yelling FIRE ALREADY at my on screen sniper....
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
22 Feb 2014, 02:30 AM
#9
Posts: 4928
Yeah, when I use it I feel the same way. The Soviet Sniper is an issue in itself, alone the DPS is horribly slow but in pairs they're very difficult to dislodge and pretty much force-retreat any squad they click on.
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII
> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
22 Feb 2014, 10:45 AM
#10
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
And then Panzergrenadiers were worthless.
Overnerf much? Just lower armour should do, fights would be equal, if a bit faster. (lowering accuracy would also be a stealth-nerf to Partisans)
Because Conscripts cost more for having 6 men.
You wouldn't need to compensate with larger Soviet squads if you reduce the armour, (they would take damage more often) which is exactly what I suggested.
So you start to see how ridiculous your suggestion is?
I just thought it worked in CoH1 (Rifle vs Volk dynamic), it worked with AG's, I can't see why it wouldn't work with the underdog Grenadiers. Trade fire resistance for sustainability.
There was a world of difference between vcoh volks and current grens. Volks were meat to protect MGs, grens are your main infantry through whole game. They are nothing alike and 5th man can not be added without buffing soviets or heavily nerfing gren stats.
Especially when grens and scripts are two most balanced units in game.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
22 Feb 2014, 16:27 PM
#11
Posts: 747
I don't think this would work out.
Gren / Con balance is fine.
Gren / Con balance is fine.
22 Feb 2014, 17:38 PM
#12
Posts: 598
You wouldn't need to compensate with larger Soviet squads if you reduce the armour, (they would take damage more often) which is exactly what I suggested.
Well I personally like having much larger Soviet squads than German ones. It gives me the feeling that I'm using harshly trained conscripted troops against a much superior trained German force.
As I said before I also wanted every individual soldier to die faster to small arms, but that would also mean that the weak conscript units can be lost too quickly for people who do not have quick enough reflexes.
With both sides having increased squads sizes, it will be like you can see your infantry dying a lot faster but at least you have the time to realize their dying and retreat before they are wiped.
26 Feb 2014, 17:17 PM
#13
Posts: 194
If that's the case let's also make conscripts and guards 8 men squads to compensate for the extra firepower of the grenadier. Also make every individual infantry die faster by making small arms more accurate so it doesn't look like they're shooting blanks at each other. Also increase armor for the Panzer Grenadiers to 2. Good ideas?
How about making grenadiers with 5men just as strong as 4 man squads instead?
You can adjust health, armour, weapon strength etc to create a 5 man squad with exactly the same stats as a 4man squad without any problems. All you just need a tiny bit of maths. It's a matter of a few minutes to code something like this.
Member of Company of Heroes : Eastern Front Modding team
Eastern Front on Steam (link to steam)
www.easternfront.org
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www.easternfront.org
26 Feb 2014, 17:39 PM
#14
Posts: 157
How about making grenadiers with 5men just as strong as 4 man squads instead?
You can adjust health, armour, weapon strength etc to create a 5 man squad with exactly the same stats as a 4man squad without any problems. All you just need a tiny bit of maths. It's a matter of a few minutes to code something like this.
I think the main point of refuting arguments is that adding another man will have an adverse impact on other balance aspects of the game - snipers in particular.
"If it's not broken, don't fix it"
While squad wipes are definitely more prevalent as a German player, this issue can be better remedied with improved squad AI and collision detection. It could also be a l2p issue.
26 Feb 2014, 17:46 PM
#15
Posts: 807
Forget grenadiers, just increase pzgrenadiers defense. They are ridiculous. I see nobody here thinks at the micro issue. Much easyer not to loose entire russian infantry squads BECAUSE THEY ARE 6 FFS! No squad whipe for a single tank shot eather! I mean, in dome cases, german infantry has no real chance to survine middle and end-game.
26 Feb 2014, 18:23 PM
#16
Posts: 2779
Forget grenadiers, just increase pzgrenadiers defense. They are ridiculous. I see nobody here thinks at the micro issue. Much easyer not to loose entire russian infantry squads BECAUSE THEY ARE 6 FFS! No squad whipe for a single tank shot eather! I mean, in dome cases, german infantry has no real chance to survine middle and end-game.
No, we don't need ubershocks mark II, thanks.
26 Feb 2014, 19:16 PM
#17
Posts: 194
I think the main point of refuting arguments is that adding another man will have an adverse impact on other balance aspects of the game - snipers in particular.
Wasn't that the whole point of adding a 5th man to grenadier squads?
Member of Company of Heroes : Eastern Front Modding team
Eastern Front on Steam (link to steam)
www.easternfront.org
Eastern Front on Steam (link to steam)
www.easternfront.org
26 Feb 2014, 19:53 PM
#18
![avatar of 1[][]](/uploads/avatar/9394.png?updated=1397144681)
Posts: 172
Assgrens being 5 guys doesn't give it as much staying power as you think it does. They die easy all the same as these units most often charge across open field to get close.
In the end they get overwhelmed by conscripts with ppsh upgrades, having 5 guys makes an unnoticeable difference.
In the end they get overwhelmed by conscripts with ppsh upgrades, having 5 guys makes an unnoticeable difference.
26 Feb 2014, 19:58 PM
#19
Posts: 3293
where it would make a difference is re-crewing.
Failure is always an option. 
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26 Feb 2014, 21:21 PM
#20
Posts: 157
Wasn't that the whole point of adding a 5th man to grenadier squads?
It seems like op is referring to 1 hit wipes from explosives.
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