Penal Battalion anyone?

They are a squad that is suppose to excel at long/mid range combat and building clearing, they fail miserably at first part for their cost.

What do you expect to get for 360? Instant squad wipes versus german troops. Like there is not enough of that already. Their long to mid range damage is fine. They can take on G43 grens when in cover and with vet and melt away Assault grens like butter when using a buffer of conscripts inbetween and great for flanking suopport weapons... what more do you want?

What do you expect to get for 360? Instant squad wipes versus german troops.

Something along the lines of 240mp+60mu upgrade unit that would actually beat them with their own 60mu upgrade.
You know, maybe a similar relation that cons have with pgrens, you know, the other 360mp squad?

Like there is not enough of that already. Their long to mid range damage is fine. They can take on G43 grens when in cover and with vet and melt away Assault grens like butter when using a buffer of conscripts inbetween and great for flanking suopport weapons... what more do you want?

Tier unit with elite infantry cost that beats conditionally basic, spammable infantry unit and beats a cheaper, 0cp unit when screened with their own basic infantry? You think that is enough? Well, its not.

Or I will ask it this way:
Why pgrens excel at what they do, are extremely cost effective, have upgrade that changes their role and they excel in that new role as well and can work on their own, while penals always are dependent on fighting significantly weaker squads or need heavy support for themselves, while being a specialist one role AI unit that can not effectively fight infantry?

PGrens excel? They are a unit with high reinforce and a 120 munitions upgrade and a 45 munitions bundle grenade that hits hard or not at all, whilst coming out of T2 and also being very squishy while fighting other units. Once that second man dropped, it is wise to retreat them. Or else you lose a lot. If they had higher armor value, maybe we could discuss this further. But comparing the two is ridiculous. Penals can still be merged with conscripts while losing nothing at all, except for the reinforce cost of conscripts. And that satchel works on buildings and weapon teams and halftracks spinning in circles becasue of pathing. Guaranteed.

Well I stand by what I wrote you could change the word "suicide" with sacrificing oneself for the motherland and if they survive, to get there life sentence in the gulag removed.

Your Japanese banzai example is the kind of situation they were used for and if they died it would mean a better financial situation for there families.

Mr someguy I think what you wrote is exactly what these penal battalions are doing , sacrificing themselves.

Why are penal battalions good at medium to long range

1)Most of them won't live for long, so waste of training

2)Why give them a satchel charge and flame thrower which are close to short range weapons makes no sense

Why are penal battalions good at medium to long range

1)Most of them won't live for long, so waste of training

2)Why give them a satchel charge and flame thrower which are close to short range weapons makes no sense

1) Maybe if you tried using them as long range units with a buffer inbetween or in cover, you would recognize their value in long range combat. Don't charge the enemy with them. Flank, use them to support...

1.1) Just merge them with conscripts, you can keep up dishing out DPS while your foe has to retreat. Unless he can reinforce via HT or Bunker.

2) Because it makes them flexible. After a good flank, they can blow Jerry to hell.

Sure, the unit design may not be as straight forward or clear to some, as in shocktroops or guards. But they can have their place if included in your overall strategy. You don't have to use them if they don't suit your playstyle.

1) Maybe if you tried using them as long range units with a buffer inbetween or in cover, you would recognize their value in long range combat. Don't charge the enemy with them. Flank, use them to support...

1.1) Just merge them with conscripts, you can keep up dishing out DPS while your foe has to retreat. Unless he can reinforce via HT or Bunker.

2) Because it makes them flexible. After a good flank, they can blow Jerry to hell.

Sure, the unit design may not be as straight forward or clear to some, as in shocktroops or guards. But they can have their place if included in your overall strategy. You don't have to use them if they don't suit your playstyle.

1. Any strat using penals that has to rely on conscripts is ineffective, considering the need to tech for molotovs/AT nades to make the unit half decent. Also keep at range but flank? Choose one.

1.1 Merged models don't get SVTs, so that apparent high DPS that can somehow take out G43s Grens (Really, try Penals sometime, they can't) isn't happening with merge.

Regardless, it is completely obvious that Penals are an overpriced, underperforming unit. I've been playing with them solely for the past two weeks daily, and you either give up a ridiculous amount of map control, or you rely on a similarly underpowered Partisan doctrine, you are at a severe disadvantage using Penals instead of typical PPSH conscript spam.

1.1 Merged models don't get SVTs

Wrong wrong wrong! Conscripts merging into a squad will gain whatever weapons that squad is using. If you merge them with Shock Troops they get PPSh's, if you merge them with a weapon crew they get really crappy support rifles, if you merge them with Penal Troops they get SVT's. Works the same on every merge-able squad except Ostheer Infantry, where they don't get a weapon (presumably weren't programmed for it).

Perhaps the best use of Penals though is to crew an MG or other Crew Weapon with them. They get 4 - 5 SVT Rifles depending on the weapon. A fresh Grenadier Squad flanking a Penal MG Crew would have a very nasty surprise waiting for them, as the 5 SVT's have almost double the DPS of a new Gren.

^True. But also the reinforcement of that squad is 30. I guess if you keep merging they get SVT as well.

This thread is full of really great ideas for this unit, which doesn't seem to realise it's potential.

A slight armour buff and a slight MP cost reduction might make this a more viable unit for me. In fact, given the usefulness of their rifles it might be balanced by removing the flame upgrade.

That would give Sovs a non-doctrinal, viable T1 infantry unit that (at about 320 MP) can form the basis of a solid early game without being OP.

1. Any strat using penals that has to rely on conscripts is ineffective, considering the need to tech for molotovs/AT nades to make the unit half decent. Also keep at range but flank? Choose one.

1.1 Merged models don't get SVTs, so that apparent high DPS that can somehow take out G43s Grens (Really, try Penals sometime, they can't) isn't happening with merge.

Regardless, it is completely obvious that Penals are an overpriced, underperforming unit. I've been playing with them solely for the past two weeks daily, and you either give up a ridiculous amount of map control, or you rely on a similarly underpowered Partisan doctrine, you are at a severe disadvantage using Penals instead of typical PPSH conscript spam.

I think it is effective. Conscripts are the backbone, remember? Saying what you say would be like Ostheer only going for PGrens (price wise). But it's all about how you choose to play the game, I guess. I am not gonna interfere with that. And yes, merging keeps up the DPS, because conscripts will get SVT's. Also, who says a flank has to be executed by standing right next to the flanked enemy unit? Don't be so tunnel sighted. Even if you go in close, and have munitions on the bank, you can throw a satchel at stationary targets, to devastating effect. Or just stand back at mid/far range and shoot them down, also killing on retreat because of high range effect. Be creative man...

I would say you try Penals yourself, since you do not seem to know much about about them...

Oh God, Penals already raping non-upgrade Grens, if you buff them more, it is like forcing Ostheer to get elite troop in every game.

Oh God, Penals already raping non-upgrade Grens, if you buff them more, it is like forcing Ostheer to get elite troop in every game.

Yea, suuurely a 40mp cut will make then unstoppable behemoths of doom.

Oh God, Penals already raping non-upgrade Grens, if you buff them more, it is like forcing Ostheer to get elite troop in every game.

Try one of these advanced tactics if you're having problems with penals:

Build an MG42
Have two grens engage a penal squad instead of one
Buy LMG42 or G43
Build a scout car or flameht
Build PGs
Build smines

What do you expect to get for 360? Instant squad wipes versus german troops. Like there is not enough of that already. Their long to mid range damage is fine. They can take on G43 grens when in cover and with vet and melt away Assault grens like butter when using a buffer of conscripts inbetween and great for flanking suopport weapons... what more do you want?

Ok so we have a unit that costs

360 MP

Can take on 320 MP Assault Grens

Can take on 240 MP 60 Muni Grens with 6 pop cap that costs 90 MP to fully reinforce if AT range in cover or with Vet DPS at mid is 19ish. At Mid takes about 4 seconds to kill a Penal entity dropping DPS.

They cost 150 MP to fully reinforce or if using merge 100 MP to reinforce and have a 9 pop cap. DPS at mid is 18.87. Takes about 6 seconds to kill a Gren enity with a full squad to drop their DPS. As you can see Penals are going to lose entities first which will snowball them into complete loss.

Pgren DPS at Mid 22.

YEAH nothing wrong there what should we expect?

Assault grens aren't really even worth 320 mp. They are worth 280 but their 0cp call-in threw balance off so badly that they needed to have a prohiitive cost. It was either more manpower or an additional muni cost and the players hated spending more muni. It's why their reinforce cost is still the same as when they were 280.

Assault grens aren't really even worth 320 mp. They are worth 280 but their 0cp call-in threw balance off so badly that they needed to have a prohiitive cost. It was either more manpower or an additional muni cost and the players hated spending more muni. It's why their reinforce cost is still the same as when they were 280.

It was also pre T1/T2 build time buff for soviets and since the buff time I'm constantly repeating that AGs could go back to their 280mp cost(they are balanced as 280mp unit and reinforce as one, only their initial price is 320).

They had to be delayed/prevented from spam, because counters couldn't arrive fast enough with long T1/T2 build times, since that is no longer an issue, I see no reason why they should still cost 320.

I do know that some top players/streamers say they are fine at 320mp, but I don't see them becoming OP at 280 anymore.

And the same applies to penals, they are not performing up to the cost, so their cost should drop or performance should increase.

Ok so we have a unit that costs

360 MP

Can take on 320 MP Assault Grens

Can take on 240 MP 60 Muni Grens with 6 pop cap that costs 90 MP to fully reinforce if AT range in cover or with Vet DPS at mid is 19ish. At Mid takes about 4 seconds to kill a Penal entity dropping DPS.

They cost 150 MP to fully reinforce or if using merge 100 MP to reinforce and have a 9 pop cap. DPS at mid is 18.87. Takes about 6 seconds to kill a Gren enity with a full squad to drop their DPS. As you can see Penals are going to lose entities first which will snowball them into complete loss.

Pgren DPS at Mid 22.

YEAH nothing wrong there what should we expect?

Thank you for studying the spreadsheets, man.

It was also pre T1/T2 build time buff for soviets and since the buff time I'm constantly repeating that AGs could go back to their 280mp cost(they are balanced as 280mp unit and reinforce as one, only their initial price is 320).

They had to be delayed/prevented from spam, because counters couldn't arrive fast enough with long T1/T2 build times, since that is no longer an issue, I see no reason why they should still cost 320.

I do know that some top players/streamers say they are fine at 320mp, but I don't see them becoming OP at 280 anymore.

And the same applies to penals, they are not performing up to the cost, so their cost should drop or performance should increase.

Agreed. Is it really that hard to put the cooldown up on Agrens? 280 MP and a long cooldown so they dont get spammed. Average out the call in time of Agrens to be 1.5 the build time of Penals. This way you can build T1 and build Penals and they wont be swarmed by a map full of Agrens before they hit the field.

And Agrens will be worth their price of 280 MP they are NOT worth 320.

Jesus christ what is up with people thinking Assgrens are bad for their cost? Try making 2-3 assgrens without T1 and then straight to T2 for PGs and T2 vehicles, it's the easiest way to play germans really, you just attack move forward with your massive automatic weapon blob and the only thing that can reasonably stop it now that shocks are 2cp is several maxims, and one mistake with those will leave them all decrewed. If you try to use penals against this, you will lose pretty much 100% of the time because the following up scout car/flameht in a couple of minutes will laugh at your penal blob. For that matter even the assgren blob will laugh at penals because they'll have 3 squads for every 2 you field early game.

If you're complaining about how their price makes them hard to use in a balanced build, I guess I can kinda relate, but if anything they're too powerful for their performance when skipping T1 even at 320mp.

Oh and whoever thinks penals can actually beat an LMG gren squad, dream on. You need a flamer or a vet advantage for that to happen, and guess how much vet advantage a 360MP tech-requiring unit has over a 240MP one. Meanwhile with the flamer it's 360MP/60muni (and required tech and a more specialized unit) just to barely beat a 240/60 muni supergeneralist unit.

Jesus christ what is up with people thinking Assgrens are bad for their cost? Try making 2-3 assgrens without T1 and then straight to T2 for PGs and T2 vehicles, it's the easiest way to play germans really, you just attack move forward with your massive automatic weapon blob and the only thing that can reasonably stop it now that shocks are 2cp is several maxims, and one mistake with those will leave them all decrewed. If you try to use penals against this, you will lose pretty much 100% of the time because the following up scout car/flameht in a couple of minutes will laugh at your penal blob. For that matter even the assgren blob will laugh at penals because they'll have 3 squads for every 2 you field early game.

If you're complaining about how their price makes them hard to use in a balanced build, I guess I can kinda relate, but if anything they're too powerful for their performance when skipping T1 even at 320mp.

Oh and whoever thinks penals can actually beat an LMG gren squad, dream on. You need a flamer or a vet advantage for that to happen, and guess how much vet advantage a 360MP tech-requiring unit has over a 240MP one. Meanwhile with the flamer it's 360MP/60muni (and required tech and a more specialized unit) just to barely beat a 240/60 muni supergeneralist unit.

Big fat +1. I'd like to also add the fact that Penal squads have the exact same health as con squads.