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Death to all the RNG gods

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Basilone
6 Jan 2014, 18:37 PM
#81
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Posts: 1944 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2014, 18:26 PMGustavGans


AT-guns always penetraiting? Tanks always hitting? Mortars and Arty being spot on target with every shot?

Then I'd rather go play spamcraft or CnC

Stop putting words in his mouth. As much as I've bashed RNG I've never suggested 100% accuracy or penetration on AT guns (except in vcoh after using AP round ability, that would make perfect sense). Some things should be random like accuracy, where artillery hits, penetrating tanks, etc. but having abilities that don't perform consistently is a no-no for a strategy game that is trying to be competitive. Mines that fairly often 1 shot full health squads, Ram ability + AT nades in its current state, flamers blowing up so often, big tanks getting destroyed engine, etc. have no place in the competitive arena, and most of the people saying "nerp but that is why coh is special" are the people that spend more time watching the game than actually playing it.
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Imagelessbean
6 Jan 2014, 18:41 PM
#82
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2014, 18:25 PMBeltFedWombat
No plan survives first contact with the enemy.

I am a heretic casual and like RNG.

The Rainman / ex-SC pro tendency will kill it for the rest of us with their pursuit of reducing this game to APS / mathematics.


Rommel was a smart man.

And you are not a heretic casual for liking RNG. All RNG is not bad for COH, vCOH demonstrated that well. All Rainman is trying to do is make sure that rare events do not dictate an entire game. Rather the better player can walk out the victor.

An early squad wipe from a mine could mean the game, and that is simply not fun.

To take this point to its most absurd (simply for demonstration purposes) you could make a 1% chance that at the start of every game the Soviet player automatically won before the match loaded. That would increase RNG but would be very "unfun".
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ferrozoica
6 Jan 2014, 18:49 PM
#83
avatar of ferrozoica

Posts: 208

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2014, 09:47 AMJaigen


Bingo. you need Combined arms , you need strategic insight , good micro and scouting just to make your attack succeed. what do the soviets need to counter your attack? T-34 spam.
You don't find that a problem ferrozoica that you can simply use a one tank to win every single tank battle. That the soviets do not need combined arms planning or scouting?

Return of this i win button would destroy this game.



I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Any half-decent player should assume there is a threat of ramming just as you would assume rifles had stickies in vCoH or cons have AT nades now.

If someone just blindly throws T-34's at their opponents tanks they will quickly lose the game. Are there mines in the way? Is there a pak or shrek squad hiding behind that bush?

Yes it is frustrating when your 200 fuel tank gets disabled to a much cheaper one but (for me) it mostly happens to either over extending or being out positioned.

Personally I would have rams effect be more relative to the health/armour/facing of the target vehicle than it currently is but compared to how rams were when the game first came out, I honestly don't have an issue with them in their current form.

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2014, 16:56 PMvan Voort
If your plan fails because of the RNG gods then maybe it wasn't such a good plan.


All anyone can do in CoH (and life ^_^) is stack the odds in their favour as much as possible. Becoming truly successful is not just taking advantage of the good times but ones ability to stay focussed during the bad; to overcome the negatives so to say
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us"

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GustavGans
6 Jan 2014, 18:51 PM
#84
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Posts: 747

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2014, 18:37 PMBasilone

Stop putting words in his mouth. As much as I've bashed RNG I've never suggested 100% accuracy or penetration on AT guns (except in vcoh after using AP round ability, that would make perfect sense). Some things should be random like accuracy, where artillery hits, penetrating tanks, etc. but having abilities that don't perform consistently is a no-no for a strategy game that is trying to be competitive. Mines that fairly often 1 shot full health squads, Ram ability + AT nades in its current state, flamers blowing up so often, big tanks getting destroyed engine, etc. have no place in the competitive arena, and most of the people saying "nerp but that is why coh is special" are the people that spend more time watching the game than actually playing it.


I'm not putting words in anyones mouth.

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2014, 17:51 PMlink0
+1. This game would be so much better without all the RNG.


Also Link0's answer does not make the impression that I missunderstood him.

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2014, 18:52 PMlink0
I understand the casual crowd generally loves all the RNG.

Different strokes for different folks. I play RTS games as a pure test of skill. I like the general gameplay of this game, but the RNG takes away from skill.


and I have to completely agree with Link0, less RNG means more skill needed to win, but I still don't wan't RNG to be completely removed.

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van Voort
6 Jan 2014, 19:32 PM
#85
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2014, 18:49 PMferrozoica

All anyone can do in CoH (and life ^_^) is stack the odds in their favour as much as possible. Becoming truly successful is not just taking advantage of the good times but ones ability to stay focussed during the bad; to overcome the negatives so to say


Exactly.

Eisenhower wasn't spending his time perfecting his BO or microing his snipers.

He was trying to keep a bunch of egotistical prima donnas like Montgomery and Patton from each other's throats and maybe after that he would have time to wonder about what the enemy were doing.


That's more akin to playing 3v3 and up with total strangers than 1v1 or 2v2 with a steady teammate, which is one reason why I do the former.

I would sooner learn to surf the chaos than eliminate it

Resident Soviet Whiner and Grand Master Bias Jedi; General Secretary of the Soviet Whine Hydra Collective; Axis Hating Sheeple; Allied Butt Buddy! Collect Them All!
Also the African Branch of TAB Bulletins

PS: The Italian Army fought with courage and skill
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BeltFedWombat
6 Jan 2014, 20:00 PM
#86
avatar of BeltFedWombat
Patrion 14

Posts: 951


Mines that fairly often 1 shot full health squads, Ram ability + AT nades in its current state, flamers blowing up so often, big tanks getting destroyed engine, etc. * have no place in the competitive arena * , and most of the people saying "nerp but that is why coh is special" are the people that spend more time watching the game than actually playing it.


The competitive crowd are the 3% who want the other 97% to bend to their will. Cruel but true.

As someone who likes to watch top players, may I suggest you stop worrying about RNG (I watch a fair bit and don't see it dramatically impacting on who is consistently the best player) and start playing on some different maps instead.

The shoutcast scene is being killed by top players obsessed with the same three maps.

Sorry to digress but need to vent.
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Wesker411
6 Jan 2014, 20:26 PM
#87
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Posts: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2014, 20:00 PMBeltFedWombat


The competitive crowd are the 3% who want the other 97% to bend to their will. Cruel but true.

As someone who likes to watch top players, may I suggest you stop worrying about RNG (I watch a fair bit and don't see it dramatically impacting on who is consistently the best player) and start playing on some different maps instead.

The shoutcast scene is being killed by top players obsessed with the same three maps.

Sorry to digress but need to vent.


Not true, I'm a casual player and I would rather have my games decided by skill rather than luck. Am I gonna get my ass handed to me sometimes? Yup, but when I do win it feels much more gratifying to know my win came from skill rather than luck. If you want a game decided by luck I think Mario Kart is more up your alley.
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ferrozoica
7 Jan 2014, 00:22 AM
#88
avatar of ferrozoica

Posts: 208

OK here is a perfect example (serves me right though really :D)


12 T34's using ram
6 strafes wiping out all my shit


Fun times


http://www.coh2.org/replays/12737/strafe-rape
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us"

http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561197961759507
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elchino7
7 Jan 2014, 02:43 AM
#89
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Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2014, 20:00 PMBeltFedWombat


The competitive crowd are the 3% who want the other 97% to bend to their will. Cruel but true.

As someone who likes to watch top players, may I suggest you stop worrying about RNG (I watch a fair bit and don't see it dramatically impacting on who is consistently the best player) and start playing on some different maps instead.

The shoutcast scene is being killed by top players obsessed with the same three maps.

Sorry to digress but need to vent.


Theres a difference between taking out all RNG and make things a bit more "logical".

Take this example on engine damage with MY ideal situation:
-NO heavy engine damage possibility from AT nades/Faust unless the tank already has some engine malfunction or the tank is with low health (>50%). Getting from behiund should roll with a higher chance on further engine damage.
-NO heavy engine damage possible from Soviet mines unless tank is low in health (>66%) or already with engine damage (in this case 100%). Teller mines should stay equal as now (at least for the moment) since you are paying double for them in comparison.
-RAM: 100% chance of AT LEAST engine damage if ramming from behind (just like an expensive AT nade). Any further damage may still behave as it works now.

My dream world:

1-We have side armour.
2-While we have number 1, we apply 100% of at least engine damage on side n rear. RAM is just a forward straight line boost ability. This means you have to AIM carefully before ramming. No "heatseaking" ability.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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link0
7 Jan 2014, 02:50 AM
#90
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Posts: 337

I think Ram should just deal a set amount of damage, 100% of the time, such as 300hp. Perhaps 50% extra damage if done from behind. Remove the chance for engine damage/gun damage.
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MetaStable14
7 Jan 2014, 15:06 PM
#91
avatar of MetaStable14

Posts: 95

I haven't played for a patch or two now but it seems like much hasn't changed. RNG makes the game really fun when implemented correctly. However there are too many scenarios in this game where it is not. For RNG to work it should be able to balance itself out within the time frame of each game - the statistical distribution of values should conform by the game's end. Infantry rifle shots are an example of RNG done right. Sure one player might land a few lucky shots early on but by the end of the game so many shots have been fired the statistical distributions should be fairly good. Currently there are too many RNG elements paired with big events that will not be able to balance out by the game's end.

Personally I don't think there should be anything in this game that should insta-gib a full health unit - not even artillery or special abilities. It goes against the nature of the game (unit preservation). If you aren't given a chance to retreat it doesn't make sense
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cr4wler
7 Jan 2014, 16:03 PM
#92
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Posts: 1164

If you want to like the CoH franchise, you have to accept RNGesus into your heart first.
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BeltFedWombat
7 Jan 2014, 21:25 PM
#93
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Posts: 951

"Personally I don't think there should be anything in this game that should insta-gib a full health unit - not even artillery or special abilities."

I'm sorry but a railway artillery shell hits a pioneer squad. You think that shouldn't result in pioneer jelly over six grid references? Because I do.

Strafes and V1s in vCoH punished blobbers... brutally. CoH2 should have the same stuff going on.
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Basilone
8 Jan 2014, 00:37 AM
#94
avatar of Basilone

Posts: 1944 | Subs: 2

Artillery should really fuck up whatever it hits, strafe should be toned down though. There is no avoiding it, even in vcoh at least you could retreat or it could even miss. The IL2 plane works more like sector artillery except far more consistent. Get it in the guys base after a big retreat and he is going to lose about 400-1000mp worth of infantry even if they are somewhat spread out. I've had games where I retreated the second the plane entered and my full health vet squad got smoked when he was halfway back to base, that is bullshit.
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MetaStable14
8 Jan 2014, 01:26 AM
#95
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Posts: 95

I agree artillery should fuck up whatever it hits. If you have a full health squad and it gets directly hit by a shell the squad should probably have 3 or 5 deaths respectively with the remaining guy very low health. Splash damage from additional shells should be able to kill the remainder. However insta-gibbing shouldn't be a factor in the CoH series in my opinion. There should always be a chance to retreat and heal - regardless of how small that time window is.

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SgtBulldog
8 Jan 2014, 14:53 PM
#96
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Posts: 688

The only way RNG will hit you unfairly is if you are a fanboy and only play one faction. If you play both sides and many games, you'll get the same benefit/hurt from RNG in average as everybody else.

This is maths from elementary school.
'There's honour in victory, honour in defeat and honour in just staying alive'.
[Quote from Wings Reel]
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Imagelessbean
8 Jan 2014, 15:47 PM
#97
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Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2014, 14:53 PMSgtBulldog
The only way RNG will hit you unfairly is if you are a fanboy and only play one faction. If you play both sides and many games, you'll get the same benefit/hurt from RNG in average as everybody else.

This is maths from elementary school.


Although technically true, this is not a logical argument. You are correct that by playing both factions you will get good rolls and bad rolls for both sides. However, to then state that it averages out is incorrect. It only averages out on a faction per faction basis not on an overall game basis.

Let me give you an example if as Soviets you have 1 in 2 chance of wiping every Ost unit off the field with artillery that is RNG. You are going to see the RNG rolls approach 50% (sometimes exceeding, sometimes having a lower percentage than the stated 50%) if you play enough. It does not make the game fun.

OP abilities are not countered by saying if you play enough RNG rounds things out. By that logic we would never have to balance a game with RNG.
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tokarev
8 Jan 2014, 18:59 PM
#98
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Posts: 307

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2014, 13:45 PMStephennJF
Yes RNG is important and I like it to, but CoH2 has more of it to CoH1 and it is by far more punishing.

My primary problem with RNG in this game revolves around mines, in particular Soviet mines. They are by far the most broken part of RNG in this game. I have lost 2-3 games in the past week primarily because a single Soviet mine killing 4 men, full health gren squads. Yet other times, it kills only 1 model and hardly protects your flank. There is no predictability to mine RNG and it is frustrating.


Sorry but I've never ever seen a soviet mine wiping out the whole squad at full health. I mostly play as Soviet (95% of all games) and I place mines in every game no exception. Never ever TM-35 killed a squad for me....
What happens is that the first mine kills two models, the second kills one more and leaves last model alive. It happened like 100 times and I've never seen a full health squad wipe with one mine
Vae Victis!
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elchino7
8 Jan 2014, 20:09 PM
#99
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2014, 18:59 PMtokarev


Sorry but I've never ever seen a soviet mine wiping out the whole squad at full health. I mostly play as Soviet (95% of all games) and I place mines in every game no exception. Never ever TM-35 killed a squad for me....
What happens is that the first mine kills two models, the second kills one more and leaves last model alive. It happened like 100 times and I've never seen a full health squad wipe with one mine


Cause you are mostly playing SU you wont notice. Things like that happens, not frequent, but happens.
Someone explained on another thread/post how mines work (40% chance of dying for those entities far away of the unit who trigger the mine or something like that).
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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MetaStable14
8 Jan 2014, 21:26 PM
#100
avatar of MetaStable14

Posts: 95

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2014, 14:53 PMSgtBulldog
The only way RNG will hit you unfairly is if you are a fanboy and only play one faction. If you play both sides and many games, you'll get the same benefit/hurt from RNG in average as everybody else.

This is maths from elementary school.


If the RNG can't even out unless multiple games are played then the RNG is implemented poorly and skill is less important. RNG should balance out within each game - or close to it. Player skill should be the deciding factor in each game.
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