Germans are bad

I've listed my reasons as to why I believe Sovs have better AT earlier on, and you just come along and say, "Germans have better AT"

Yeah, I understand what BeltFed meant. And I understand a lot of what Nullist has done as well.

And no, it was quite the opposite. In fact, Barton was outplaying OMGPOP in that game till the T-34-85s came out. Put it this way, before the first 2 came out, OMGPOP had 3 squads left. Pretty much, all OMGPOP had lost was one T-34-85. Really, in a balanced game, with 6 T-34-85s probably should end up losing about 3-4 T-34-85s to 2 tigers and still come out winning.

Anyway, this coming from a soviet whineboy who clearly has wanted Germans to be UP, kinda funny, but sadly, what's happening of late. (Asking ppl to try to play both sides with your playercard... heh)

I never write my ballance opinion. I never want something nerf or buff. I am trying play with i have and do my best.

This forum have new troll. :-))))

He propagate Nazi. This soldiers kill many peoples in occupy countries. Fight against fighters for freedom - partizans. They was traitors who fight on german side.

Sorry, i am angry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/369th_(Croatian)_Infantry_Division_(Wehrmacht

L2P. Watch some replays. Traint versus cpu and improve you poor skill.

Well if that aint trolling, I don't know what is.

I've listed my reasons as to why I believe Sovs have better AT earlier on, and you just come along and say, "Germans have better AT"

Yeah, I understand what BeltFed meant. And I understand a lot of what Nullist has done as well.

And no, it was quite the opposite. In fact, Barton was outplaying OMGPOP in that game till the T-34-85s came out. Put it this way, before the first 2 came out, OMGPOP had 3 squads left. Pretty much, all OMGPOP had lost was one T-34-85. Really, in a balanced game, with 6 T-34-85s probably should end up losing about 3-4 T-34-85s to 2 tigers and still come out winning.

Germans have better AT options. That's a fact. You can think Soviets are better based on your own experience but you are mistaken. I am not trying to prove anything here, I am stating the fact. Simple as that.


Also OMGPOP! game is quite famous and was talked through a lot on this and other forums. If you let your opponent to have 6 T-34/85 you were outplayed. I am not saying anything bad about Barton or denying his skill, in fact I am a huge fun and can't even dram of compeeting with him but we all got better and worse games and we all got brilliant and terrible ones. That one was terrible.

Germans have better AT options. That's a fact. You can think Soviets are better based on your own experience but you are mistaken. I am not trying to prove anything here, I am stating the fact. Simple as that.


Also OMGPOP! game is quite famous and was talked through a lot on this and other forums. If you let your opponent to have 6 T-34/85 you were outplayed. I am not saying anything bad about Barton or denying his skill, in fact I am a huge fun and can't even dram of compeeting with him but we all got better and worse games and we all got brilliant and terrible ones. That one was terrible.

I suppose damagewise, the Germans seem to have better AT options. However, when you consider how squishy they are and how gimmicky this game is, the sovs IMO seem to have it better. I've listed the main AT options earlier. The Germans actually do have some solid units like Panzer 4, Panther and arguably Elefant but id take Sov Ram, button, Oorahing ATnaders and a 6 man AT Gun any day. Not to mention the mines.

Yeah, the thing I really didn't like about that game was how the game got turned on its head despite OMGPOP losing everything. That really irks me.

But yeah, considering how, in high level games, baserushing isn't really a thing, whats stopping you from hoarding T-34-85s near your base. You don't even need Engineers to repair the T-34-85s, just use the passive repair ability. I mean, once when you get 4 T-34-85s, you pretty much can't be attacked IMO. I haven't tested this, but this is what I understand and think from the game.

Almost every German tank is a AT tank, good against tanks, Panzer Grenadiers are far better in killing tanks then Guards, German AT gun, PaK is far better AT gun than ZiS, plus Germans have ultimate tank killers like Elephant. Ram only works 100% with medium tanks and can be avoided with good positioning and micro.

PGs being better tank killers than guards? I'm not too sure tbh. While PGs tend to do a lot of damage to tanks, Guards still have button, which, can just about kill any tank that wanders too close.

And keep in mind that the Pz4 is still quite expensive, along with the Panther. The Stug only works against Tier III from my experience. Against T4, it tends to lose.

PGs being better tank killers than guards? I'm not too sure tbh. While PGs tend to do a lot of damage to tanks, Guards still have button, which, can just about kill any tank that wanders too close.

And keep in mind that the Pz4 is still quite expensive, along with the Panther. The Stug only works against Tier III from my experience. Against T4, it tends to lose.

It costs 60 munis for the lmg and then another 40 every time you want to use button, and for that you get to stun the tank for a few seconds. You still need another unit that can actually kill the tank as guards really don't do enough damage on their own. It's much more of a defensive ability.

Considering german at guns and stugs can accomplish something similar at a much greater range at vet 1 it seems like you are valuing this ability much more then it's worth. It can easily punish a player being far too aggressive with their tanks, which seems to be your case.

The traditional narrative you describe is there for a reason. Even late in 1945 the Germans were organizing effective counter attacks that the Soviet army was struggling to defeat. The German army was a better unit, and would have won the war for Germany had Hitler not intervened multiple times at critical moments. In addition, the Soviet army did win by brute strength, tactics were difficult to teach to mostly illiterate peasants.

We can have a discussion on that if you want, but I don't think this is the thread for it. I'll be glad to discuss in the Scrapheap if anyone wants

German AT is stronger if you compare it with Soviets' AT in a vaccum and individually, but Soviets have much more stronger combined arms options. Button + Mark Target + anything with a decent cannon = good night to anything short of a Tiger, and none of that requires veterancy. The Guards Motor doctrine is a very commonly picked one for a reason. Think about larger games where more than one Mark Target may be available; how can AT ever be a problem then? (Note: Mark Target will make even a Tiger Ace cry and that has 2xhp of a regular Tiger, so think about how much it affects regular Panzer IV's)

Sure, 40 munitions per button seems like a lot, but keep in mind Soviets save on munitions easier than Germans, with no upgrades on basic infantry and light vehicles, and no muni cost for healing station. If the munitions being saved is put to good use killing enemy panzers, I don't see why this is necessarily a "disadvantage." Also, cheaper mines.

The only exception to the above conditions is the Elite Troops doctrine which can give veterancy, alleviating the need for vet1 to stun, and also pop smoke, countering buttoning. Other than this clearly broken doctrine, Germans have a lot fewer "OP" combos than Soviets, especially as the number of players increase.

TL;DR: Elite Troops OP. Germans not so much.

I never write my ballance opinion. I never want something nerf or buff. I am trying play with i have and do my best.

This forum have new troll. :-))))

Are you talking about yourself? You never actually add anything but dickish statements. We are here to discuss balance, actual or perceived. If you elaborate instead of being insulting in bad english maybe you would sway others, or at least help them see things from a new vantage point

Button is a joke. A very situational and far too easily countered painfully expensive gimmick attached to a 360 mp vanilla gren unit. It costs 100 muni to use the first time can be cancelled by driving towards the guards forcing them to move throwing a bundle nade or getting pgrens anywhere near guards popping smoke or deiving out of range. Its the discraceful expensive benefit to having a unit that is really only good against a flameht but is otherwise overshadowed by penals for ai at nades for at or any doctrine containing shocks.

Target weakpoint is better in every concievable scenerio and is attached to much more useful at options.

Mark target is powerful indeed. So is the combo with t34/85s. However it is doctrine exclusive in the combo you are talking about is the premier soviet at doctrine similar to jaeger armor.

Further to add to this if your using guards and actually want to kill infantry you will be tossing 45 muni nades left and right so muni on guards motor is nit floating terribly high unless of course you skip using guards themselves.

Along those lines its like arguing germans have the best ai thanks to ambush camo and g43s.....

Germans have better AT options. That's a fact. You can think Soviets are better based on your own experience but you are mistaken. I am not trying to prove anything here, I am stating the fact. Simple as that.


Also OMGPOP! game is quite famous and was talked through a lot on this and other forums. If you let your opponent to have 6 T-34/85 you were outplayed. I am not saying anything bad about Barton or denying his skill, in fact I am a huge fun and can't even dram of compeeting with him but we all got better and worse games and we all got brilliant and terrible ones. That one was terrible.

Ok well my question to you is what would you have done differently. He had paks, 2 shreks Squads, 2 Tigers. What trump card would you have pulled to save the day?

I saw no way for him to stop Omgpop from calling in t34s unless he took total map control. His at options weren't being effective, so more and more t34/85s appeared after every skirmish.

@Jheartless: You realize Guards are not supposed to be a roflstomp-everything-in-their-path unit, right? I get that you want them to be armed with AKs and RPGs but I'm afraid this isn't a modern-era game.

Button has the potential to CC a tank for 5 seconds, an ability that is not even available to Germans until vet1. If you think that's useless then you should just stop playing this game. Learn to combined arms rather than using one unit type to yolo against their army.

Mark Target is not just in one doctrine. The doctrine with the ISU-152 and camo AT guns is very strong as well. Don't forget Partisans doctrine with shrek squads popping outta random houses. On the other hand, Elefants with scopes IS exclusive to only one doctrine.

Ahhh your right silly me i thought guards were the infantry version of the tiger ace my bust....

Now back to reality. Button is too easy to cancel for its cost. Its not anymore useless than an SU76 but like an SU76 its not good for cooooosssstttt. Anymore discussiin on the overpriced guards please see that topic.

Target weakpoint cannot be interupted and doesnt imobilize the user. If you cant get to vet 1 stop playing the game....

Partisans have randomly a single shrek. With mark target its at dps is 50% less than Pgrens.

Camod at guns funny the damage boost is on the first shot only and there is no hold fire. So again with mark target zis dps is that of a vanilla pak. Do you even look at wooofs spreadsheet?

Again out of the box germans always will have at the very least equal at soviet doctrine dependant and in most cased 50% more at dps then soviets.

Well if that aint trolling, I don't know what is.

I write him sorry. Bad day and his nazi signature makes me angry.

And is it true. Only oneside player never have good balanced proposal. Only want nerf another side. Players playing both side, like Link and Barton can make game better.

@JHeartless: Fine, we will save Guards for the other topic.

I'm not saying its hard to get to vet1, all I'm saying is that it takes longer for Germans to get the ability than Soviets and it costs around the same to use. So basically you're just trading the initial 60 munitions for earlier availability, and there is nothing wrong with that. Also, the stun ability in the current patch is broken as it no longer tracks the target, but I assume that will be fixed.

Partisans cost how much compared to Pgrens? Why are you even making that comparison? You realize Germans have to pick between flame halftrack and panzershreks, right? These are not cheap upgrades, not to mention the Pgrens lose 50% of their AI capabilities. If they're able to spam shrek squads, you've clearly been outplayed.

DPS is not the end all argument, especially for AT combat in this game. It's all about the burst damage in the initial volley when using Mark Target. 2 Zis + Mark Target will one shot a Panzer and that is infinitely more useful than any "AT DPS" the Germans can come up with. If you're taking sustained fire from a Pak40 with the faster Russian tanks, you probably got caught. The Pak43 is a good choice but also easily countered with artillery.

Mechanics for vehicle combat also work differently than infantry combat. Generally, you lose resources for damage taken to infantry as it costs manpower to reinforce. However, you don't lose resources for damage taken to vehicles - you just lose time in the form of repairs. There is no direct loss to your bottom line. Therefore, a vehicle kill is worth so much more than dealing however much damage to a tank but letting it get away in the end, especially when Soviets also have potential to access auto-repair (also in several doctrines) in which case 30 munitions is their only loss, even if their tank took 99% damage.

I'd much rather have higher burst potential than higher dmg over time for AT.

So your arguement is about personal preference you do not then deny the fact the german faction has better AT.

Fyi at parts cost 250 mp and have a small chance to get a single shrek or a better chance ro get two ptrs. You brought them up i am doing an infantry at comparison. So point being even if i get a lucky roll and dont get ptrs AND i spend the muni for mark target i would still do 40% less damage then german at infantry.

Also i am glad you decided to bring up burst vs sustained dps. Yes a mark can hurt in surprise by a whole dedicated at force. Bur this is why german armor tends to have higher armor and hps for their relative class.

I am also glad you brought up target weakpoint as being bugged cahse guess what? So is self repair! Not being abke to cancel it because a pio is attacking you is good times for all!

I am also glad you explained vehicle combat dynamics to me because i was very confused....since losing vehicles is more painful then i am sure you agree having higher hps facing at most equal at and at worst inferior at then having higher hps smoke and blitz is an exponential advantage in the armor game.

Also i would like to point out your whole arguement about soviets even having equal at is centered around a single ability that isnt in every doctrine. Me i personally prefer doctrines with shocks...

The germans have better AT options in theory, both their tanks and infantry + paks (even mines too) do the trick well. But in 1v1s im always struggling to counter the russian tanks 'cause of the muni costs.

BUT!! in a game german players are can't use all of his AT arsenal due to the heavy muni or fuel cost. So...their upgrades are too expensive (mg42/G-43, shrecks, FHT, bunker upgrade, teching up,tank upgrades and the commander abilities). Yeah paks are good....but they get cleared out too easly.

While the russians can always counter tanks cheaper (30 muni for a mine, AT 'nades, Guards counter T2's light vehicles, ramming, Su, mark target + T-34-85s).

But thats the same as saying in theory soviets have better ai but shicks lose to flametracks and soviet tanks have crap hps.

They eitherbdo or they dont. I will not accept that germans do not have superior AT. No one says its ser it and forget it nor should it be its far too powerful for that. This is a game of unit preservation and micro. I can use german AT to great effect. I even messed around in 1V1 by not using armor and winning by converting fuel to muni and spamming tellars and paks. The fact is mark target takes Soviets 50% weaker overall AT and evens the playing field. Leacing the soviets also with marginally better AI because you wont have mark with superior AI soviet units or abilities.

Where for mother russia dies it both with AI and AT. Yet there are no cries about that because tanks dont get the boost.