Scout Cars

Well not all hope is lost. Scout cars are almost never used. They just die basically right now especially with guards coming out so fast. Even then though its not much better when they arent around.

Point being they nerfed the MG42 and then buffed it again. It could be only a matter of time before something is changed on the scout car or its made more useful in some form. It definitely needs to be looked at for sure.

repairing is never free, you lose time, time that could be used to cap with pios or kill with them

In theory yes. But look at the time it takes to repair the SC. You can't even cap a point in that time.

The point that you can replace damage taken at no cost to MP is valid.

They should increase the cost, and then increase the units health and damage. This should offer Ost a light anti infantry unit to deal with large numbers of infantry heavy armies that do not include Guards.

Right now this car is a counter to only one unit (Soviet Scout Car) and is completely useless against even a single con squad with at nades. Since they come early I have no idea how to get AC on field before AT nades.

Also repair cost MP and time for sure.

They should increase the cost, and then increase the units health and damage. This should offer Ost a light anti infantry unit to deal with large numbers of infantry heavy armies that do not include Guards.

Right now this car is a counter to only one unit (Soviet Scout Car) and is completely useless against even a single con squad with at nades. Since they come early I have no idea how to get AC on field before AT nades.

Also repair cost MP and time for sure.

Agree, right now it can hardly kill a protected sniper team, also if it would be changed it could hunt down mortars (annoying 120mm) and maxims too.

I'll disagree on principal if anyone asks to make the Scout car like the Puma's 20mm autocannon. That thing was a ridiculous starcraft style counter weapon that has no place in a CoH game.

I do think it could do some interesting things though, such as ignoring yellow or even some green cover, or just the accuracy modifier. After all, those 20mm cannons could shoot through most infantry cover. However, it would still be not quite as accurate overall against infantry as it is against vehicles.

This would allow the scout car with 20mm upgrade to play something of an early siege weapon. With its MG and 20mm firing from long distance, stationary, to apply good damage over time.

Or perhaps we can just give some meaning to the word "armored" in its name, the "Armored Car."

I'll disagree on principal if anyone asks to make the Scout car like the Puma's 20mm autocannon. That thing was a ridiculous starcraft style counter weapon that has no place in a CoH game.

I do think it could do some interesting things though, such as ignoring yellow or even some green cover, or just the accuracy modifier. After all, those 20mm cannons could shoot through most infantry cover. However, it would still be not quite as accurate overall against infantry as it is against vehicles.

This would allow the scout car with 20mm upgrade to play something of an early siege weapon. With its MG and 20mm firing from long distance, stationary, to apply good damage over time.

So the t70 is ok but the Germans having an equivalent is not?

Thiss.. is why the player population is dwindling. The Soviet preference players want the german side to be a push over faction and seems Relic agrees. If Germans had 6 man Knight cross Holders in t1, Soviet preferenced players would be in an uproar. However most of them believe if you name them shock troopers and give them to the Soviet side its fine..Or if you name the puma t70 it's fine.

@VonMecha, Oh stop it with the butthurt. I want the game to be balanced for both sides. Instead of immediately jumping into a childish persecution complex, you could address the argument at hand, instead of jumping to yet another. The 7-70 is a separate issue, and it is being worked on. I was going to post more on the T-70, but I'm not going to let you drag this off topic. Maybe you could actually post more proper post with reasonable suggestions in this topic about the 221 scout car? Because *gasp*, I as a primarily Soviet player, am still advocating for buffs for the 221?! What, perish the thought that I might actually want a fun game for everyone.

I'm fine with more armor or HP for the 221 and M3. But what won't solve the damage potential. And any HP or armor increase wouldn't be that much since they're supposed to be a bit vulnerable.

Another thing is that, historically, these armored cars really did have poor armor. The armor they had could only just stop a 30cal rifle shot at range, which is why the Germans angled the armor and even thickened the armor on the 221 to 14.5mm (same as the 251). So, while they were armored, it wasn't that much armor, and the basic rifles of the time are incredibly powerful. Making something BOLD doesn't give it any more meaning.

Part of the problem with the scout car and M3 is that once they're caught, unless you have supreme micro and already positioning, it's hard to get them out, or have them stay alive to do their damage.

Having them at long range drastically reduces that damage, making them pretty much ineffective unless the fight goes on for a long time. It'd be nice if the 20mm cannon, instead of being a 20mm rapid fire sniper rifle like it was in CoH1, it could be a siege weapon that helps bust through cover in protracted long range fights, but not too well since it would make it too effective without risk.

I would be happy if the "armored" car just didn't get shredded by bolt action rifles. The m3 is almost immune to small arms and can be a wtf kill weapon when stuffed with inf, but when the scout car had a little bit more survivalability at vet2, people were screaming for the nerf bat.

Persecution? Are you denying that almost every single German unit got nerfed since release. Soviets got some hits as well, but none that rendered them useless, ie scout car, stug, mg42....

I remember during the COH2 closed beta the Armored Car was still kind of useful. Now its just free points for enemy Soviet starter-infantry, and you pretty much never see it built in any pub game.

I realize this unit is small potatoes in the grand meta scheme, but if they're bothering to include a unit in the game then it should be viable. If not remove it.

That's where you're wrong VenMecha. The M3 is hurt just as easily by small arms as the 221. But, the Soviet AT Grenade is much more commonly used than the faust, but that's because there's more targets to hit with the AT Grenade, meanwhile there's only the M3 to faust early on, then tanks.

You only see things from one angle. I played Germans exclusively in the beta, and a few games after, since they I've played Soviets only because my friends play Soviets.

I like both armies, I know that's a hard concept to understand.

But you, and a lot of people on here have a weird persecution complex caused by lack of experience of both sides. Which would normally be fine since I don't think people should be forced to play what they don't want to play.

That 221 scout car you say only has gotten nerfs, got a buff to its MG, then got the ability to use both at the same time.

And yes, the German army got nerfs overall for a reason, and there's Soviet things that have been nerfed, or side nerfs. Blame Relic for maybe overdoing it with some aspects, but remember that no developer ever listens to just one side, and no developer ever implements the exact change that any segment of a community asks for. Instead, they'll listen to reasonable changes, and won't even bother reading more talk about how one side or the other seems to whine more than the other.

You don't see it due to that persecution complex, and that same persecution complex made you come into this thread, derail it with this stupid discussion, instead of you coming here and actually providing useful, actionable changes.

Meanwhile, I've got to work on my own indie game, but even I made the time to try and come up with actionable solutions instead of nothing but whining and name calling. You know why this community is dwindling? It's because we're too busy fighting between each other to take Relic to task, or to provide actionable changes when they can fix it.

Making something BOLD doesn't give it any more meaning.

I'm just reminding everyone why we're here - to talk about balance, not about this ongoing politics war that has plagued this game ever since inception.

And don't bring up historical accuracy please - it only leads to more of the aforementioned political war.

The unit needs to be more accessible to all tiers of players, rather than being useless for the majority and extremely useful for "kite-masters," hence small armor or hp buff would be better than some kind of weapons upgrade.

The unit needs to be more accessible to all tiers of players, rather than being useless for the majority and extremely useful for "kite-masters," hence small armor or hp buff would be better than some kind of weapons upgrade.

This, especially since all car units (222, m3, katyusha) are quite hard to micro at times when the terrain or objects work against you.

That's where you're wrong VenMecha. The M3 is hurt just as easily by small arms as the 221. But, the Soviet AT Grenade is much more commonly used than the faust, but that's because there's more targets to hit with the AT Grenade, meanwhile there's only the M3 to faust early on, then tanks.

You only see things from one angle. I played Germans exclusively in the beta, and a few games after, since they I've played Soviets only because my friends play Soviets.

I like both armies, I know that's a hard concept to understand.

But you, and a lot of people on here have a weird persecution complex caused by lack of experience of both sides. Which would normally be fine since I don't think people should be forced to play what they don't want to play.

That 221 scout car you say only has gotten nerfs, got a buff to its MG, then got the ability to use both at the same time.

And yes, the German army got nerfs overall for a reason, and there's Soviet things that have been nerfed, or side nerfs. Blame Relic for maybe overdoing it with some aspects, but remember that no developer ever listens to just one side, and no developer ever implements the exact change that any segment of a community asks for. Instead, they'll listen to reasonable changes, and won't even bother reading more talk about how one side or the other seems to whine more than the other.

You don't see it due to that persecution complex, and that same persecution complex made you come into this thread, derail it with this stupid discussion, instead of you coming here and actually providing useful, actionable changes.

Meanwhile, I've got to work on my own indie game, but even I made the time to try and come up with actionable solutions instead of nothing but whining and name calling. You know why this community is dwindling? It's because we're too busy fighting between each other to take Relic to task, or to provide actionable changes when they can fix it.

ok wasnt going to say anything but thats the second post you use insults and then try to take the high ground. And you take a balance discussion and derail into personal assaults. Oh the irony. But I won't play along..

As I said my suggestion is to make it not be susceptible to small arms. Just like the clown car needs to be killed with faust, upgraded lmg or ap rounds or heavier. No one fears or uses the German scout car(OK, 2 people). And that's for a reason. And it was not always that way.

The upgun bonus was a ok buff but not for losing durability. If a Tiger Ace had 1 health and 0 armor, no matter what damage its gun did , it would not be viable. Right now the germans are sorely lacking recon and light armor. Although the the scout car is the closest in either one of these roles it can do neither reliably. Keep it weak, but give it extended sight range. Or up the durability

ok wasnt going to say anything but thats the second post you use insults and then try to take the high ground. And you take a balance discussion and derail into personal assaults. Oh the irony. But I won't play along..

As I said my suggestion is to make it not be susceptible to small arms. Just like the clown car needs to be killed with faust, upgraded lmg or ap rounds or heavier. No one fears or uses the German scout car(OK, 2 people). And that's for a reason. And it was not always that way.

The upgun bonus was a ok buff but not for losing durability. If a Tiger Ace had 1 health and 0 armor, no matter what damage its gun did , it would not be viable. Right now the germans are sorely lacking recon and light armor. Although the the scout car is the closest in either one of these roles it can do neither reliably. Keep it weak, but give it extended sight range. Or up the durability

I don't think making it completely immune is a good idea. It comes out at a time when there are not really any at units on the field except maybe the odd guard squad, but even that's doctrinal. At nades can be hard to get off at times and might not even have them upgraded yet and while you should be able to punish an unprepared player such a cheap unit shouldn't be able to beat the other players army on it's own.

I think a general health buff would do the unit good. Make it a bit more forgiving to use. It would open up room for other changes too like a ptrs rof buff that I think wouldn't be so great at the moment do the current scout car.

maybe somewhere in between such as reduced damage at range full damage upclose, but a panzerfaust is just the same as an at nade and minus the oorah even. Not to mention the addition of inf that can roast squads quickly. A unit that has the durability but not the killing power of an flamer scout car seems mild. Realistically though, I doubt it will ever be buffed into a combat vehicle again. I think alot of people would be happy if it turned into a bike type recon unit with exta long sight range. One thing that makes paks less useful is lack of spotting units and a buff like that could be universally beneficial.

It was really interesting to hear Peter say that the Ostheer should have an armored car out by the 4-5 minute mark. That by itself should give folks a clue as to the intended window of maximum effectiveness. CoH2 seems to be balanced internally by a series of counters (and counter-counters). So instead of simply saying "Needs more armor!" or "or needs more Powah!" I think the focus of discussion should be how to get the armored car to work within its intended role/time.

"This is why the player population is dwindling "

VonMecha, how do you know that? Please cite your information. Keep in mind that hunches or seeing a few bros in the lobby does not count as information . Also, don't discount the natural life cycle in a release and any yearly/seasonal changes.

That said.....back when I was President my advisors kept telling me that we were going to lose the war and that Lee was OP. I knew that they were prolly just tripping and needed to L2P newbs

That said.....back when I was President my advisors kept telling me that we were going to lose the war and that Lee was OP. I knew that they were prolly just tripping and needed to L2P newbs

Awesome line XD

It was really interesting to hear Peter say that the Ostheer should have an armored car out by the 4-5 minute mark. That by itself should give folks a clue as to the intended window of maximum effectiveness. CoH2 seems to be balanced internally by a series of counters (and counter-counters). So instead of simply saying "Needs more armor!" or "or needs more Powah!" I think the focus of discussion should be how to get the armored car to work within its intended role/time.

"This is why the player population is dwindling "

VonMecha, how do you know that? Please cite your information. Keep in mind that hunches or seeing a few bros in the lobby does not count as information . Also, don't discount the natural life cycle in a release and any yearly/seasonal changes.

That said.....back when I was President my advisors kept telling me that we were going to lose the war and that Lee was OP. I knew that they were prolly just tripping and needed to L2P newbs

You are right I have no hard statistical facts to back that up. All I have is common logic that leads me to believe when the majority of players prefer one faction(Germans), and a sampling of those players voice concern about the lack of strength or viability of that faction after continuous nerfs, then the overall online population decreases, that the overall population decrease is directly related to said active changes.

Also you are assuming no one has ever built and tried to make the scout car fit in. This is the whole point of the discussion. We have and it doesn't. With the exception of chasing clown cars, many have concluded that what it does do can be done more effectively and cost efficiently with other units, also known as not even being worth a low price.

All scout cars really need is reasonable HP buff so they are not basically one shoted by Panzerfaust/ AT nade.
All prblems with scout cars started when they've changed how Panzerfaust/ AT nade work.