Shocktroops at 1CP

Shocks and Guards definitely need to go back to 2CP; there are some pretty OP builds no involving these units.

All that being said - sure Shocks can be beaten that early in the game, but I personally dislike the effect that 1 CP shocks/guards on have on the pace of the game. The past few patches have eroded the sense of "early game" that is so dear in CoH. I personally love/enjoy playing and seeing vanilla Grenadiers fighting vanilla Conscripts for the first few minutes of a game. (Don't read this as me justifying gren spam or con spam, I'm not). I love seeing the "dance" for cover and better positioning, trying to lure enemy squads into MG fire, or into bad positions. These early game engagements can really set the tone for the rest of the match, and have the potential to make matches more unique and dynamic. You can be aggressive and go for early cut-offs, you can play more defensive and try to control your own half of the map etc etc.

Elite infantry coming so early really negates this aspect of the game. Shock troops fighting vanilla grens really don't care about cover or positioning, you just right click them next to the Gren squad and watch them shred the grens to pieces. The only thing you have to really worry about is an MG42, and even then you have smoke grenades and Oorah on your Cons to flank.

So yes, they may be counter-able this early in the game, but it isn't fun to play against, it erodes the early game to being even shorter than it already was, and simplifies the game even further.

no no these need to be changed to 2 points. Suggesting a fht for a counter isnt a good option when you have to pay 120 ammo just to counter something thats dumb. Pgrens are only good 1v1 if they are veted and the shock troops arnt. In my soviet builds i have been using since the patch i can have a shock troop as my 3rd unit built


Also last night i played a 3v3 against a team where one was industry and the others where shock troop doctrines so early anti inf and early armor killed us

I'll tell you what's not a good option is having to build 3 at guns an su85 and a couple hundred in munitions setting up for a tiger ace winning the game for loosing players, I know ur like wtf hold the phone lethal that's a different topic, how ever it's relevant especially here. Just because something is a pain in the ass for you doesn't mean it's op weather the ace is op or not is different topic how ever... G43s are the best weep upgrades in game, and come at 2cp so, to suggest shocks need to move back in cp because it's inconvenient for you is stupid and in that case we just better move every commanders cps around and start the next thread

It amazes me that players still have the front to complain about tiger ace when it's been proven sooooo many times how to deal with them

It's getting rather boring now.

I'll tell you what's not a good option is having to build 3 at guns an su85 and a couple hundred in munitions setting up for a tiger ace winning the game for loosing players, I know ur like wtf hold the phone lethal that's a different topic, how ever it's relevant especially here. Just because something is a pain in the ass for you doesn't mean it's op weather the ace is op or not is different topic how ever... G43s are the best weep upgrades in game, and come at 2cp so, to suggest shocks need to move back in cp because it's inconvenient for you is stupid and in that case we just better move every commanders cps around and start the next thread

I really think you missed the main arguments in this thread bro...

Also G43s aren't exactly effective counters to Shocks by any stretch of the imagination.

Also also a single Su-85 is more than enough to kill a Tiger Ace assuming you're competent enough to damage the engine, which is pretty easy to do. People grossly over exaggerate how difficult it is to kill a Tiger Ace.

I really think you missed the main arguments in this thread bro...

Also G43s aren't exactly effective counters to Shocks by any stretch of the imagination.

Also also a single Su-85 is more than enough to kill a Tiger Ace assuming you're competent enough to damage the engine, which is pretty easy to do. People grossly over exaggerate how difficult it is to kill a Tiger Ace.

This man talks sense listen to him ^^

I'm just saying there is no reason to drag out shock troopers there is a counter to everything.

I'm just saying there is no reason to drag out shock troopers there is a counter to everything.

I think you are saying that shocks can be countered so we should leave them at 1 cp?

If this is true this completely ignores the fact that shocks are the hard counter to Ost T1. They use to come at a time when you could punish long T1 builds and get back in the fight. Now they come so soon they actually come before the long T1 build and punish all Ost players. These units also get to the field earlier and get vet quickly, making them better in the mid game than they used to be.

What hard counter to shocks would I play from T1? (Please don't say snipers, Ost snipers are useless, and still very vulnerable to shocks)

I think you are saying that shocks can be countered so we should leave them at 1 cp?

If this is true this completely ignores the fact that shocks are the hard counter to Ost T1. They use to come at a time when you could punish long T1 builds and get back in the fight. Now they come so soon they actually come before the long T1 build and punish all Ost players. These units also get to the field earlier and get vet quickly, making them better in the mid game than they used to be.

What hard counter to shocks would I play from T1? (Please don't say snipers, Ost snipers are useless, and still very vulnerable to shocks)

Snipers are a very hard counter to shocks provided you micro them properly. They have a high rate of fire and guarantee a model kill per shot - which inflicts a lot of MP bleed on the Soviet player. Fielding Shocks and Snipers is extremely MP heavy and Soviet T1 poorly supplements Shocks, therefore there isn't too much that your German Sniper will have to worry about until Soviet T3 or T4 vehicles hit the field.

MG42s can also hold their own against Shock troops, although as mentioned in this thread, smoke grenades can be a pain to deal with.

I really believe that the discussion lies more in the realm of whether or not Shocks/Guards coming at 1 CP is simply too fast for the intended pace of the game. I for one believe that there are viable counters to Shocks at 1 CP, although it is certainly easier said than done. However I'm certainly open to counter arguments and am willing to assist players with suggestions if anyone is having trouble countering them effectively.

I don't want to derail the thread with this comment, but I think Guards are a bigger problem at 1 CP than Shocks because they also tend to beat Grenadiers (discounting Vet/LMG42s/G43s which won't be present that early - well maybe 1 LMG42 will) but they also serve as such a hard counter to German T2.

And I'm not sure you can have Shocks come at 1, but Guards come at 2. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like that would feel awkward - I think they need to come at the same time (preferably 2 CP)

Why wouldn't the sniper work? If I built shocks just one squad they can't be everywhere at once and the German sniper is a good counter when you do run in too it, if he's dying that's ur fault watch cata macro his sniper he owns and he runs with g43 2 cp comes fast and it gets too the point when he encounters shocks they get overwhelmed by g43s also the soviet player is gonna have to get some kinda AT most common build is t2 t3 so there is no sniper to counter ur sniper and good forbid he go t1 and shocks then his pants are left down to a FHT

G43 does not overwhelm shocks! Where are you seeing this?

its 1 shock squad i dont see the problem, and if its more then the soviet player is gonna bleed out. and wont have the capping power

Why wouldn't the sniper work? If I built shocks just one squad they can't be everywhere at once and the German sniper is a good counter when you do run in too it, if he's dying that's ur fault watch cata macro his sniper he owns and he runs with g43 2 cp comes fast and it gets too the point when he encounters shocks they get overwhelmed by g43s also the soviet player is gonna have to get some kinda AT most common build is t2 t3 so there is no sniper to counter ur sniper and good forbid he go t1 and shocks then his pants are left down to a FHT

I would use Ost sniper more if I could be comfortable that it could not be killed by stupid things like random mortar shots, or lucky volleys from squads. The Ost sniper is extremely squishy and although, in theory, it is the counter to Shocks, in game it fails to be so.

I am competent at micro, but a good Soviet player need only use the shocks to clear out and MG and then move off the field to avoid mp drain, because at that point scripts can start to move up. Or if mp drain is a problem and shocks are hunting snipers, they can reinforce with scripts to allow them to stay on the field and do damage. So early in the game the additional armor lost is less important.

Shocks and guards were fine at 2 cp's (or 1 under the old system) this should have remained so. Leave 1 cp units for units that are not stand alone great, ala the DSHK, and 2 for units that are linchpins (guards, shocks).

Also by forcing Ost to go sniper you reduce Ost capping power by 1.5 units. So losing capping power to shocks is irrelevant, since you only lose 1 unit to cap as Soviet (since shocks can still cap).

I would use Ost sniper more if I could be comfortable that it could not be killed by stupid things like random mortar shots, or lucky volleys from squads. The Ost sniper is extremely squishy and although, in theory, it is the counter to Shocks, in game it fails to be so.

I am competent at micro, but a good Soviet player need only use the shocks to clear out and MG and then move off the field to avoid mp drain, because at that point scripts can start to move up. Or if mp drain is a problem and shocks are hunting snipers, they can reinforce with scripts to allow them to stay on the field and do damage. So early in the game the additional armor lost is less important.

Shocks and guards were fine at 2 cp's (or 1 under the old system) this should have remained so. Leave 1 cp units for units that are not stand alone great, ala the DSHK, and 2 for units that are linchpins (guards, shocks).

Also by forcing Ost to go sniper you reduce Ost capping power by 1.5 units. So losing capping power to shocks is irrelevant, since you only lose 1 unit to cap as Soviet (since shocks can still cap).

Fair enough, i get every ones point, i dont want to take away from the OP just wanted to post what i thought.

I really like taking some of these comments about Shock Troops and replacing them with the word King Tiger.

Shock Troops can be countered. I know because I've played them since day 1. Shock Troops DPS can only be applied when they are within their optimal range. Deny them the range so they cannot apply their damage. Drag them out, lure them into a MG42, sniper, G43 squad in cover, etc etc. Completely ruin the squad by using a flame half track and follow the squad in retreat back into the base.

I really believe that the discussion lies more in the realm of whether or not Shocks/Guards coming at 1 CP is simply too fast for the intended pace of the game. I for one believe that there are viable counters to Shocks at 1 CP, although it is certainly easier said than done. However I'm certainly open to counter arguments and am willing to assist players with suggestions if anyone is having trouble countering them effectively.

That's exactly the thing I would like to discuss here.
As I said before, I don't say that shocks are op or that they can't becountered at 1cp.

I really like taking some of these comments about Shock Troops and replacing them with the word King Tiger.

Shock Troops can be countered. I know because I've played them since day 1. Shock Troops DPS can only be applied when they are within their optimal range. Deny them the range so they cannot apply their damage. Drag them out, lure them into a MG42, sniper, G43 squad in cover, etc etc. Completely ruin the squad by using a flame half track and follow the squad in retreat back into the base.

How many times people have to tell you G43 are not great against Shocks?
Also luring into a sniper or an MG is the same as having 2 grens fighting 1 shock troop, you still dedicate 2 units for 1. But in 2Gren vs 1 Shock case you receive more MP damage to yourself than the enemy simply because you can`t pin/guaranteed 1 shot 1 kill them.

Although that`t not the issue in this thread. We are discussing their timing and not if they are OP as a unit or not

I'd say the timing is good. There is some variance now in starting unit builds. I did fine with the ST's at 2 CP so I suppose in the long run it won't matter. I just like the variety now.

For the record every soviet player I've encountered annoyingly is not prepared to fight my grenade squads with g43 at range.

They love getting in close and chasing me round the map.

Let's introduce a minimum distance fighting rule and let the g43 reign supreme

Wow I completely disagree with the OP. Shocks are horrible for their cost. I just hard-counter them with LMG grens and a sniper. I always laugh when I see shocks.