Patch Notes Discussion (Dec. 10th)

I just played a game as Osteer. My opponent went for conscript spam into T1. I was able to gather enough munitions for 2 LMG42s before my opponent hit 2CP. The first one was before my opponent even had 1cp. I was even cut-off from my resources at one point and never held more than 40% of the map.

So no, PPSHs will not hit the field before LMG42s, not by a LONG shot. And, you can even get 2 LMG42 grenadies if you manage to hold at least 40% of the map for some time before your opponent hits 2cp.

Good old PCGamer provides an article on the resent patch/DLC as usual:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/12/11/company-of-heroes-2-updates-with-steam-workshop-free-maps-and-southern-fronts-dlc/


Damn those pics looking good!

No.
What it means is you can have 6xPPSH in the time and cost Ost has one single LMG/G43.

You're really daft if you assume that a Soviet player would gain enough CPs on average to pump out PPSHs before or at the same time an OH player would normally have 60 muni. Could be explained by your lack of experience playing Soviets.

what does new moving vehicle penalty mean to flame HTs chewing up retreating squads? has that been altered as a result?

flamethrowers all have accuracy of 11, so even at 50% accuracy theyre still hitting with 550% accuracy.

Ok, but out of pure interest what is roughly the DPS decrease?

well its not purely a dps decrease. they function quite differently. heres the old:



and the new:



the first 2 numbers are the min and max range, then dps numbers starting at 0m and increasing in 5m increments up to 30m. so you can see the old sp ppsh had no min range. that meant there was no "near" damage like all other small arms. all other small arms dps caps out at 10m or less, but the old ppsh dps kept going up. if you got to 0m, each ppsh was practically an lmg without the 2 second ready aim time. thats why it was underpriced in my opinion.

on top of that, they function differently on the move. the old ppsh got the same 50% accuracy penalty like most weapons on the move. the new ppsh (the one shocks use) only gets a 25% reduction in accuracy. the new one also has a burst multiplier of 1.5, meaning it shoots 50% more shots per burst on the move (which also means 50% more shots before a reload). .75 accuracy combined with 1.5 burst means they actually do 12.5% more dps while on the move than when stationary. the old ppsh was better while standing still.

That's cool woof, thanks for the explanation.

flamethrowers all have accuracy of 11, so even at 50% accuracy theyre still hitting with 550% accuracy.



well its not purely a dps decrease. they function quite differently. heres the old:



and the new:



the first 2 numbers are the min and max range, then dps numbers starting at 0m and increasing in 5m increments up to 30m. so you can see the old sp ppsh had no min range. that meant there was no "near" damage like all other small arms. all other small arms dps caps out at 10m or less, but the old ppsh dps kept going up. if you got to 0m, each ppsh was practically an lmg without the 2 second ready aim time. thats why it was underpriced in my opinion.

on top of that, they function differently on the move. the old ppsh got the same 50% accuracy penalty like most weapons on the move. the new ppsh (the one shocks use) only gets a 25% reduction in accuracy. the new one also has a burst multiplier of 1.5, meaning it shoots 50% more shots per burst on the move (which also means 50% more shots before a reload). .75 accuracy combined with 1.5 burst means they actually do 12.5% more dps while on the move than when stationary. the old ppsh was better while standing still.

So basically now you have to constantly move your ppsh cons so they would kinda perform better?

So, a conclusion from that would be that PPSH have about 50% reduced raw dps compared to before, but better accuracy when moving as well as longer bursts.

In terms of gameplay optimisation, that would mean better to keep them moving if necessary, and if you are really pro, wait in cover for reloads. Optimal range is 15, but ofc at 10 you negate cover, so probably better to still close in.

So, a conclusion from that would be that PPSH have about 50% reduced raw dps compared to before, but better accuracy when moving as well as longer bursts.

In terms of gameplay optimisation, that would mean better to keep them moving if necessary, and if you are really pro, wait in cover for reloads. Optimal range is 15, but ofc at 10 you negate cover, so probably better to still close in.

If you keep moving, you'll lose half the DPS of your rifles. The bonus DPS when moving with a PPSH41 is about 3-4x lower than the DPS of a stationary rifle, ergo it's best not to keep moving.

If you keep moving, you'll lose half the DPS of your rifles. The bonus DPS when moving with a PPSH41 is about 3-4x lower than the DPS of a stationary rifle, ergo it's best not to keep moving.

So the mechanic around this is Cons with ppsh are okayish stationary and okayish on the move. While Grens get even better stationary with an LMG and are okayish on the move?

If you keep moving, you'll lose half the DPS of your rifles. The bonus DPS when moving with a PPSH41 is about 3-4x lower than the DPS of a stationary rifle, ergo it's best not to keep moving.

No, the DPS of PPSH is much higher than a rifle, when moving at close ranges.
Which is exactly where you want to be with PPSHs anyways. Why would you stay far with them??
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApmrrrPr20ncdEpuSHcxNko1VGVFYjczYXpFZWhqOHc#gid=0

The rifles still have the full movement penalty, whereas the PPSHs, with their higher DPS, burst and lower movement penalty, will provide a big net benefit when at 10-15.

This change incentives moving assaults to get into 10-15 range, which is also incidentally optimal for Molotov placement, which forces infantry to reposition and therefore impairing their DPS output.

@PaRaNo1a
No, LMG Grens have their DPS impaired by 1/4 when moving. Remember that the LMG replaces one standard rifle. Thats no longer "okayish", its severaly impaired. G43s ftw. 2 better DPS weapons firing even while moving, as opposed to 1 normal rifle and a non-firing LMG, while moving. Huge difference.

If first PzIV is too much aggresive, you can button and take down with ZiS-3. And guards with LMG is much more better versus infantry.
I personaly prefere place some mines. ;-)

A Panzer IV is hardly part of the early game... And if I want an early infantry counter I'll go for maxims, sniper, penals or ppsh cons (depending on what commander I use).

I rarely ever upgrade my guards before the first "real" german tank hits the field.

Thanks wooof for clearing that up

No, the DPS of PPSH is much higher than a rifle, when moving at close ranges.
Which is exactly where you want to be with PPSHs anyways. Why would you stay far with them??
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApmrrrPr20ncdEpuSHcxNko1VGVFYjczYXpFZWhqOHc#gid=0

The rifles still have the full movement penalty, whereas the PPSHs, with their higher DPS, burst and lower movement penalty, will provide a big net benefit when at 10-15.

This change incentives moving assaults to get into 10-15 range, which is also incidentally optimal for Molotov placement, which forces infantry to reposition and therefore impairing their DPS output.

I never said that you should not move into close range, it is indeed optimal to close in. You however posted that it's optimal to keep them moving. I pointed out that keeping them on the move leads to decreased DPS.

I think this might be what you meant, but your wording was ambiguous and I wanted to clear it up.

IMO, the PPSH change is a huge nerf. They come out a bit earlier, but the huge dps nerf makes it not worth it to me.

The mun cost? Who cares, when it was already peanuts.

So basically now you have to constantly move your ppsh cons so they would kinda perform better?

i havent done the math, but im guessing everyone else is right. the penalty from moving with 4 rifles is probably more than the added damage from the 2 ppshs. so cons are probably still better while stationary.

shocks however should always be moving to get the most dps.

IMO, the PPSH change is a huge nerf. They come out a bit earlier, but the huge dps nerf makes it not worth it to me.

The mun cost? Who cares, when it was already peanuts.

It is certainly a nerf, but then again it was broken before by accident so it needed to be fixed. Don't forget by getting PPSH's you are threatening grens with good dmg up close and forcing them to upgrade to lmg's instead of allowing the Ost player to hold on to their muntions. That means you have taken 60 munitions out of the coffers and placed them on the field.

I often find myself as Soviet trying to get German players to spend munitions quickly so I can beat them on the ground. Ost is often dependent on high munition cost abilities late in the game to clear the numerically superior Soviet forces. If they don't have them they can't spend them.

The Soviet Industry "nerf" doesn't do anything. All it means is that the Engineer needs to be retreated a bit earlier and then isn't participating on the map, of course.
The T70s will hit at exactly the same time as before.

The Soviet Industry "nerf" doesn't do anything. All it means is that the Engineer needs to be retreated a bit earlier and then isn't participating on the map, of course.
The T70s will hit at exactly the same time as before.

Yes, it's very sad to see that after a month of outrage from the community, the two most hated commanders were not nerfed. Heck, on of them even got a mayor buff.

I sent a replay to breaking brad showing how broken soviet industry was. his response? repair depots have too many hitpoints (and sure enough this was changed in the patch!)