Patch Notes Discussion (Dec. 10th)

Np.

Basically it means your entire Con force can have PPSHs very long before Ost can have even a single LMG/G43 on one Gren.

PPSH is doctrinal and guards LMG is the same 60 muni. If sovites upgrade early, they dont have muni on mines, molotov and AT nades. And fast PPSH help deal with assault grenadiers.

Moscow winter fuel is very harrasable.. from the cut off point.

I haven't tried the new Ppsh strats but 10 ammo seems to me too cheap.

They have to be really worse than singleplayer PPsh to justify that price.

PPSH is doctrinal and guards LMG is the same 60 muni. If sovites upgrade early, they dont have muni on mines, molotov and AT nades. And fast PPSH help deal with assault grenadiers.

Why should you upgrade guards early?!

what does new moving vehicle penalty mean to flame HTs chewing up retreating squads? has that been altered as a result?

Flamers of all kinds dgaf about scatter.
Listed change shouldnt be affecting them at all.

As to the PPSHs, since Relic didnt list the change or give any specifics, we'll have to wait till one of our resident stat wizards process them before we can have informed discussion.

My gut says theyd have to be pretty shitty to be so cheap and so early.
Con/Gren was already balanced on the head of a needle.

I expect running off just about every Gren I meet in early game with earlier, cheaper and more numerous PPSHs before he can even get a single LMG. Even a small edge from PPSH should be enough to dominate vanilla Grens. Less ranged dmg, but you dont engage Grens at range anyways generally. Should also stack nicely both in and against early garrisons feom close range with the building change.

Why should you upgrade guards early?!

So they won't lose as hard to LMG42 grenadiers.

Basically it means your entire Con force can have PPSHs very long before Ost can have even a single LMG/G43 on one Gren.

very long before a single upgraded Gren?
LMG: 2 CPs (previous 1) doesn't come as early as you think, you can have an LMG for sure (for what it's worth, might not be the best counter)
G43: Unlocks now at 2CP, same as PPSH

Why should you upgrade guards early?!

If first PzIV is too much aggresive, you can button and take down with ZiS-3. And guards with LMG is much more better versus infantry.
I personaly prefere place some mines. ;-)

So they won't lose as hard to LMG42 grenadiers.

DP has really shit stats. No chance vs LMG Grens.

I crunched the numbers a while back and posted them and was somewhat shocked at how shitty DP DPS is compared to cost. CBA to dig them up again though, but I assure you it was quite pathetic.

They seemingly dont have an internal setup time, which is a plus, and I hope, in retrospect, that I remembered to count the numbers of DP replacing the same number of rifles correctly. Pretty sure I did. But unless I overlooked some core element, the DPS was really quite shitty.

Im for a DP buff, either in DPS, or a cost reduction. Button is signficant, but in and of itself also very expensive as well as difficult to utilise effectively. Id rather make DP more cost effective as AI, rather than worrying about Button too much yet.

Though Guard are in many ways a bit too utilitarian, with Nade, vanilla light AT (which sometimes can snipe infantry, as well as causing an indirect model "shuffle" in infantry targets), good armor and high model count, I really do think the DP is underperforming DPS wise, for its cost.

I would like to see the DP get double damage, but the DP upgrade only gives one DP to the squad. This gives the whole squad a minor DPS buff (1 rifle extra) and will tone down the rate of weapon drops from guards. It would also finally add a weapon to the soviet side that the germans will really want to pick up when it drops.

Well testing it a bit I feel like a Conscript PPsh now shoots faster but deals less damage, to a point where you can't fight Pgrens at all in a 1vs1 fight. Dunno about the overall dps tho.

very long before a single upgraded Gren?
LMG: 2 CPs (previous 1) doesn't come as early as you think, you can have anMG for sure (for what it's worth, might not be the best counter)
G43: Unlocks now at 2CP, same as PPSH

Tuvok, my dear, youve misunderstood the changes (as well as some other baseline facts).

1) LMG never had, and still hasnt, a CP requirement. Its gated solely by Muni.
2) G43 and PPSH unlocked at 2CP in the old system. If that had been directly transplanted, it would be 4CP in the new system. This, because the rate of CP generation has been doubled, as a result of which most other Commanders have had the CP requirement for their abilities doubled.

PPSH/G43, however, has stayed at 2CP in the new system (it wasnt multiplied like the others), which is the equivalent of 1CP in the old system. Meaning they come out twice as early now, as they used to.

Tuvok, my dear, youve misunderstood the changes (as well as some other baseline facts).

1) LMG never had, and still hasnt, a CP requirement. Its gated solely by Muni.
2) G43 and PPSH unlocked at 2CP in the old system. If that had been directly transplanted, it would be 4CP in the new system. This, because the rate of CP generation has been doubled, as a result of which most other Commanders have had the CP requirement for their abilities doubled.

PPSH/G43, however, has stayed at 2CP in the new system (it wasnt multiplied like the others), which is the equivalent of 1CP in the old system. Meaning they come out twice as early now, as they used to.

I haven't misunderstood anything, stop assuming people are stupid and you are the only one that understands basic english, in fact you haven't understood what I wrote.

I will rephrase only talking about new CPs timing:
Implication that PPSH come very long before a single LMG Gren:
2 Command Points (PPSH) don't come as early as you think, you can have an LMG for sure (for what it's worth, might not be the best counter)
Implication that PPSH come very long before a single G43 Gren:
They unlock at the same 2CP

I haven't misunderstood anything, stop assuming people are stupid and you are the only one that understands basic english, in fact you haven't understood what I wrote.

I will rephrase:
Implication that PPSH come very long before a single LMG Gren:
2 Command Points (PPSH) don't come as early as you think, you can have an LMG for sure (for what it's worth, might not be the best counter)
Implication that PPSH come very long before a single G43 Gren:
They unlock at the same 2CP

2CP comes earlier than YOU think in the new system. Its at the equivalent of 1CP in the old system now, which means PPSH/G43 come twice as early as before. Twice. As. Early.

They unlock at the same CP, but Ost has to accumalate 60 Muni for a single infantry upgrade, whereas Sov only needs 10 per Con to swing early engagements vs vanilla Grens.

I repeat, all of this is happening at the equivalence of 1CP in the old system, meaning twice as eaerly.

Also, gotta love how you glossed over being wrong about LMG having a CP threshold.

Again, stop explaining me how CP work now, I perfectly understood it from the first moment.
I never said that LMG require CPs, if you read how I rephrased it you understand what it meant.
Again, both your implications were utterly wrong.

About muni:
nothing changed in the timing of LMG.
If you could have it in the old system before 1 CP (yes you could) you can have it now before PPSH.

If you could have it in the old system before 1 CP (yes you could) you can have it now before PPSH.

No.
What it means is you can have 6xPPSH in the time and cost Ost has one single LMG/G43.

No.
What it means is you can have 6xPPSH in the time and cost Ost has one single LMG/G43.

that sounds very different than "Basically it means your entire Con force can have PPSHs very long before Ost can have even a single LMG/G43 on one Gren"

that sounds very different than "Basically it means your entire Con force can have PPSHs very long before Ost can have even a single LMG/G43 on one Gren"

Tuvok, I don't mean to jump on the bandwagon, but it means exactly that. Since PPSHs come earlier and the cost of 6 PPSHs = the cost of 1 LMG, your entire con force will have them before the grens have 1 LMG. Unless, you build more than 6 cons to start the game, which I could not understand how you could get away with that.

I'm with tuvok, you could get an LMG before either race has 2CP. Then yes of course at 2CP (not long after), all cons can have Ppsh.

That's all he was saying.

Balance wise, we'll have to see how that plays out over lots of games. I imagine it makes cons feel similarish to ass grens for a short while until Germans get upgrades and PGs out.

Tuvok, I don't mean to jump on the bandwagon, but it means exactly that. Since PPSHs come earlier and the cost of 6 PPSHs = the cost of 1 LMG, your entire con force will have them before the grens have 1 LMG. Unless, you build more than 6 cons to start the game, which I could not understand how you could get away with that.

True statements:
- You can have 6pphs conscripts just a little later than than an LMG gren.
- You can have 6pphs conscripts at the exact same time (assuming even cp split) as a G43 Gren.
False statement:
- "Basically it means your entire Con force can have PPSHs VERY LONG BEFORE Ost can have even a single LMG/G43 on one Gren"