ISU-152

Introduction
I believe it is a good time to talk about the ISU-152 and its role given the current meta of Company of Heroes 2. I rarely ever see this unit deployed and after looking at the underlying statistics some changes are needed.

Why should this unit be looked at?
Tigers and Panthers oh my. Soviets do not have enough viable DEDICATED late game anti armor capabilities. With the recent Tiger Ace commander the glaring issue of Soviet vs German late game armor has been brought to the forefront. Looking at the leaked patch notes this issue is only going to get worse.

What should be looked at?
The ISU-152 under performs when compared to its German rival, the Elephant or even the mid game SU85. There are multiple ways to address the under performance including a resource reduction, penetration increase, etc. I suspect it'll take a combination of things to make it viable again. Resource cost reduction would be the place to start.

Where are the statistics to support this?
Interesting to note that both the Elephant are 25MP, and are both dispatched units with 2 commanders each.



From the statics we can see that the Elephant is A) cheaper B) better damage C) can apply the damage to a wider arc D) has better armor C) faster reload time. On the other hand, the ISU-152 has A) splash damage and B) better speed.

Perhaps the comparison to the Elephant was a bit unfair.



Comparing it to the SU85 we see that the ISU-152 is A) over double the cost B) has slightly better armor and hit points C) more damage D) better range E) splash damage. Note the SU85 has A) better speed B) better penetration C) faster reload.

Conclusion
The ISU-152 is a slightly buffed version of the SU85 but is unable to compete against its German rival in any fashion. Given the price of the ISU-152 is would be a better idea to build two SU85's rather than a single ISU-152 and have better penetration and the ability to flank from multiple directions. Until the ISU-152 is buffed it will remain a lame duck.

The 152 is a long range direct fire artillery piece, not a dedicated anti-tank vehicle so comparing it to the Elephant or the SU85 doesn't really work.

I have used it a fair bit and I like it. Get a couple of ATG's, maybe some Guards and a T34 for ram to protect it. It is however map dependent (it works extremely well on Semios winter for example).

The only real issue with it is the IS-2 is generally a better choice for less fuel so maybe a small fuel cost decrease could be warranted

Are you kidding? the ISU is a beast!

The main reason you dont see it often is its resource cost.


But use Mechanised Support with T1 and T2, you call one in mid game once you hit 5 CP. It abaolutley OWNS any infantry that try to get close, and you have a web of ZiS, Guards and mines to slow any armour that trys to get close, meanwhile your ISU blasts away constantly. (not to mention mark target is also in this doctrine).

Ive owned every single Tiger Ive encountered with this assault gun.

Yes an Elefant might be a good counter (everything needs a counter right). Its also map dependant. Even against elefant, you can mark target it, and drop IL2 bombs on it, which also come with the ISU.


Your trying to compare it to two units which are pretty much only AT, meanwhile this OWNS infatry squads, while still giving good damage to armour.

I am really impressed. You obviously spent some time on that subject, with nice spreadsheets, bold headlines and all - but yet managed to get your conclusion 100% wrong.

Not wrong at all. Soviets lack dedicated anti armor units. If this units role is anti infantry then that just leaves the SU85 and the divide is even wider. Perhaps my conclusion needs to be clearer, re-purpose the ISU-152 to be a dedicated anti armor platform. The KV-8, KV-1, KV-2, and IS-2 handle infantry just fine. No matter the intended role, the resource price is still out of line.

I have to agree with Ferrozoica, it's more useful than the Elephant since it eats infantry alive and it does good damage against German medium armor.

I think the main reason why this unit is underused is because of it's cost and that it is an assault gun, though the majority of the assault guns in this game are less used except for the SU85 which Relic managed to get cost efficient. Decreasing it's cost to make it on par with the IS2 would be nice.

I saw a similar topic on companyofheroes.com forums, and they said the ISU-152 was also not good enough. This is exactly why I cannot bring myself to post over there. You are clearly not using the tank for its intended purpose if you think this tank's AT is not good enough.

You have the opportunity to wipe vet 3 squads in one shot, while being a threat to armor! You can also have it shoot through any obstruction on the map.

Maybe, maybe, a price reduction, slightly. But in all seriousness L2P.

Disagree with opening post.
ISU-152 obliterates infantry and destroys tanks when used correctly.
I think its price is quite accurate as well.

Penal squads with a satchel charge also destroy tanks when used correctly. It doesn't mean they excel at it by any means. This unit has an identity crisis and needs to be corrected to reflect what it's true role is. Sounds like that is up for debate.

When comparing it to the IS-2 it has A) worse armor B) costs more fuel C) has the same damage D) has lower penetration E) is far less mobile F) slower reload time. IS/2 has nearly the same splash damage with only .5 far .25 near difference. The only advantage the ISU-152 has over the IS-2 is range but given the current meta this is easily made up with just a straight charge at it or worst all, German nitrous fed tanks.

While its easy to write these concerns off as 'learn to play' it's easy enough to counter 'learn to read'. I'm not using out dated statistics. There are many better Soviet alternatives for anti infantry while a gap is present for late game dedicated anti armor.

Napalm, you are claiming it has an identity crisis. Everyone here appears to know exactly what it does.

It is an artillery piece, use it as such.

It has armor so it can get close enough to rain in shells that obliterate anything that is foolish enough to be in front of it.

Even when a heavy tank hits it, it can sometimes shock the crew and give itself enough time to get support. Your argument is extremely biased.


On your penal squad point. I agree they don't excel at killing tanks, but they can destroy crippled tanks, while eliminating all infantry. Pretty handy. So they have multiple uses, much like the 152, which you seem to think is used against tanks exclusively.

Like I already said, you use its range and protect it with an army of paks, MGs, Guards (button), AT nades etc etc etc, throw mark target on top: nothing will get close.

Meanwhile it eats everything in its horrizon.


Look at all the soviet tanks, they are like slightly lighter armoured versions of the german tanks, with a bit less AT and a heck more AI.

IS2 - Tiger
ISU152 - Elefant
34/85 - Panther
34/76 - P4

Those 4 comparisons all roughly shame the same principal above, so Relic have it how they want it.

I think the odd thing about the ISU-152 is that it's a glass cannon. One could argue that such a long range monster should not have high armor values, but for some reason the Elephant does get high armor.

Both the elephant and the ISU-152 only really have to be concerned about enemy tanks. Infantry gets blasted to bits by the ISU-152, and soviets have no AT infantry that can assault and damage an elephant. Flanking a ISU-152 with any german main battle tank will quickly result in a dead ISU-152. This is fine I suppose, as leaving your ISU-152 unsupported like that should result in punishment. However, flanking a lone elephant with soviet main battle tanks will just result in a huge amount of deflected hits, giving a german player a lot more time to respond and send back up (the elephant also has 1280hp like a tiger).

tl;dr: The ISU-152 is fine as a glass cannon, it's the elephant that needs to be more vulnerable to flanking attacks with soviet tanks.

Both the elephant and the ISU-152 only really have to be concerned about enemy tanks. Infantry gets blasted to bits by the ISU-152, and soviets have no AT infantry that can assault and damage an elephant. Flanking a ISU-152 with any german main battle tank will quickly result in a dead ISU-152. This is fine I suppose, as leaving your ISU-152 unsupported like that should result in punishment. However, flanking a lone elephant with soviet main battle tanks will just result in a huge amount of deflected hits, giving a german player a lot more time to respond and send back up (the elephant also has 1280hp like a tiger).

Elephant is very vulnerable to guards or shrek carrying squads. What you mean to say is that it takes a while to kill them. But who cares, they move slowly anyway they are not going to get away. The elephant needs heavy armor because it is a dedicated tank destroyer. And the rear hit thing is patently false. One t34 can defeat an unsupported elephant easily. The elephant gives the German player more time because they are not used for the same thing. Even a single conscript squad given enough time can bring down an elephant with at nades.

ISU-152 is fine as it is imo. You may not see it used too often in automatch because most people go for the IS-2 or Soviet Industry's KV-2 these days, mostly because it supports the doctrine they're using. However, I can tell you that the higher levels still use the ISU, here's a great example of this:

ISU152 - Elefant

Not even close.

Elephant is very vulnerable to guards or shrek carrying squads. What you mean to say is that it takes a while to kill them. But who cares, they move slowly anyway they are not going to get away. The elephant needs heavy armor because it is a dedicated tank destroyer. And the rear hit thing is patently false. One t34 can defeat an unsupported elephant easily. The elephant gives the German player more time because they are not used for the same thing. Even a single conscript squad given enough time can bring down an elephant with at nades.

Yes, given infinite amounts of time and resources, one conscript squad can take down an elephant. However, this is completely irrelevant in the actual game. A soviet player quickly loses his ISU152 when caught off-guard. A german player has much more time to save his elephant from destruction. Having your 100 range tank flanked and isolated means you committed a huge tactical failure and it should result in a quick death of the tank. Currently this is the case for the ISU152, it's not for the elephant. The huge HP pool combined with the highest armor in the game gives the german player way too much time to respond compared to a soviet player in a similar situation.

ISU-152 is fine as it is imo. You may not see it used too often in automatch because most people go for the IS-2 or Soviet Industry's KV-2 these days, mostly because it supports the doctrine they're using. However, I can tell you that the higher levels still use the ISU, here's a great example of this:

This man speaks the truth!

How can you be caught off guard when your entire strategy evolves around this one tank, everything you do in the game should be building protection and scouting for this unit. If you get caught off guard, you've failed to play the strategy properly.


Also you can't compare units too deeply, Elefant has more armour, but can be effectively taken out by a single, cheap, ram. Also soviets have the best arty and strongest bomb drop.

Also you can't compare units too deeply, ISU-152 has less armour, and can be effectively taken out by a single, cheap, panzerfaust. Also germans can retreat their infantry after and use a Elephant to snipe it from across the map.

The glory days of the RAM are over. The ISU-152 has low suitability when compared to the IS/2 or Elephant. On top that, it costs more. There are plenty of ways to counter it effectively without having to resort to shenanigans that are all to common for taking out an Elephant or King Tiger.

Yes, given infinite amounts of time and resources, one conscript squad can take down an elephant. However, this is completely irrelevant in the actual game. A soviet player quickly loses his ISU152 when caught off-guard. A german player has much more time to save his elephant from destruction. Having your 100 range tank flanked and isolated means you committed a huge tactical failure and it should result in a quick death of the tank. Currently this is the case for the ISU152, it's not for the elephant. The huge HP pool combined with the highest armor in the game gives the german player way too much time to respond compared to a soviet player in a similar situation.

+1

even if somehow two t34/76s slipped through german frontline and caught elephant off guard, osteer player will always have enough time to bring support to scare away t34s or even kill them before the elephant is dead.

however, if two panzers or one panther catch isu 152 off guard, soviet player will have very little time to save or retaliate before german armor speeds away.

its one thing to snipe tanks from across the map but to be a huge damage sink is quite annoying.