SU-85 vs Inf

I was playing a 3v3 the other night on steppes and the vps up north were the centre of the battle but i sent a brand new pgren with shreks to have look at the south island where i found a completly unsupported SU-85 which kills 2 out of 4 pgrens with its first shot and i take about a third damage off the 85 which misses its 2nd shot and i take another third health off it with the next salvo the 85 then kills a third member of my squad and im forced to retreat because i cant risk losing an expensive squad like that.

This isnt right, a dedicated AT tank should not be able to straight up beat an AT Inf unit.

Do any of the posters on here see similar things happening and do you think like i do that a change needs to be made?

RNG hating on you

Its possible to mitigate this by screening with other inf. He can't both give attack orders on your pgrens for his su, and back off

What is the % accuracy of a still SU vs inf ?

sure i could screen with other inf but i that doesnt address what i see the problem is. My problem is that one on one the dedicated AT tank straight up beat the tank busters.

The su-85 a very low chance of hitting your pgrens, but a chance is still a chance and it sounds like you got unlucky.

Yep, just unlucky.

All cannons should be able to affect infantry. Every tank is a threat to infantry, the difference is that some tanks are less of a threat, but if you charge one head on with the expectation of not taking any losses it's a bit unreasonable.

Another reason to support my suggestion of reduced aim time and an increased reload time for Shreks.

Ideally PGrens should be able to move in and out of LoS to take shots at vehicles that dont respond by outranging them.

Shreks needs to be more frontloaded with a faster initial salvo, at the expense of a longer reload time.
Meaning when well microed they can duck behind LoS to reload, and return into sight for their next shot. This is more representative of their guerilla ambush AT function.

I completely agree that a Shrek in the open should get hit hard. Even by SU85s.

The problem is that they have to hang in the open even for that initial shot for too long.
It should be like this, let me tell a story:
-Franz: There is armor ahead! Get that Shrek ready
-Hans: Ja vohl, mein kommandant!
-Unit moves out of cover for the shot
-Unit fires Shrek Salvo
-Franz: A direct hit! Mein jungs, Iron Cross for ezeryone!
-Hans: Oh scheisse! Its aiming at us!
-Fritz takes a T70 round to the head.
-Franz: Get back behind this wall and reload!

Currently its like:
-Franz: There is armor ahead! Get that Shrek ready!
-Hans: Ja vohl, mein kommandant!
-Unit moves out of cover for the shot
-Franz: Hans you dumkopf, why are you not firing, Gotdammit!?
-Hans: Mein finger is schtuck in mein zipper!1
-Armor fires. Hans is now minced meat. Helmut is quite possibly without 2 of 4 limbs.
Leaving Fritz to pick up the Shrek.
-Franz: Fritz, fire already in ze name of the Fuhrer! Ve are like sitting gooses hier!
-Fritz: My finger ist schtuck in mien zipper!
-Armor fire and kills Fritz too.
-Leaving Franz no choice than to pick up the Shreks and leg it home, through fire, like in our resident artists prayer pic of the RNG Gods, having never fired a shot.

It is a consequence of its lower than normal scatter distance and its narrow scatter angle. They "miss" the infantry but their shot still lands very close to them. It has a rather small explosion radius so it really should never hit more than one guy but it still happens that it kills 2 men, which takes the PGrens out of the battle and is pretty cost intensive to reinforce.

The devs talked about having a scatter multiplier for moving tanks on the test server. When they release it, I think it'll fix some of the problems. It'll surely still hit from time to time but it'll probably happen less often.

If there are shot blockers you can put your PGrens behind, you can protect them as well. Most green cover works but some fences and even uneven terrain can help.

One of my favorite moments in my new found Sov experience, was killing a Sniper, in Fog of War, at almost max range, with attack ground, with SU85.

Poor bastard never knew what hit him.

I could probably have hit Scope and actually ranged him him, but meh, wasnt necessary.
I dont even know the Scope hotkey yet, but Since I know Attack Ground, who cares.

Another reason to support my suggestion of reduced aim time and an increased reload time for Shreks.

I don't know where you got this aim time fixation from, but shrecks already fire pretty fast, what you are suggesting (longer reload times) would actually be a nerf to shrecks: the 99% of the time you will be chasing down a tank waiting for them to reload hoping to be able to fire another round before you have to retreat due to enemy reinforcements coming or the tank itself killing you.
no sane player will stay nowhere near the shrecks waiting for you to pop in and out of LoS

Its not a nerf, its a meta improvement.

Thereby Shreks can more effecrively move in and our of cover to avoid attrition while still firing Shreks, faster, at Armor that is too retarded to reverse out of its relstively short range.

You are tryinf to endorse laying down in an open field. That stinks, completely. Not only because Shreks get wniped to shit and bleedmlike stuck pigs when they do so, but that is completely contrary to their design.

They are meant to ambush from cover. A faster first shot makes that possible, rather than lying in their bellies with their dick stuck in their zipper getting shot to shit.

An aim time reduction as balanced against a longer reload fixes exactly that.
Meaning, concretely, for Ost, fire first Salvo and IMMEDIATELY return ti cover after.
Meaning, concreteky, for Sov, dont ever get into the short range of Shreks.

This isn't just a problem with SU-85, it's the same with Panthers. I agree, dedicated AT should not do much against infantry; they should be forced to carry AI support with them, as in theory, infantry should be their counter. However, look at (especially in team games) Panther spam. If Germans save up for 3-4 Panthers between even 1 or 2 players, it's pretty much GG, because of how little their "infantry" counters do to them, and how well the Panthers kill infantry. Guards can't counter Panthers to any extend like PGrens can counter SU-85's, and it seriously takes like 3 AT guns to take on one Panther. Yeah, they're expensive, but they shouldn't be as effective against infantry as they are.

In a nutshell, yeah I think AT shouldn't snipe infantry like it does. But this isn't limited to SU-85's, it's a problem on both factions.

the panthers gun in worse in every way against infantry. more distance scatter, more angle scatter and less AOE. all of these combine to make the panther hit infantry far less often than the su85 does.

the only advantages it has are its turret and mgs. i wouldnt exactly say pathers kill infantry well though.

the panthers gun in worse in every way against infantry. more distance scatter, more angle scatter and less AOE. all of these combine to make the panther hit infantry far less often than the su85 does.

the only advantages it has are its turret and mgs. i wouldnt exactly say pathers kill infantry well though.

It might snipe infantry a little less effectively, but it's still too good against infantry/AT guns. Seriously, what infantry counters a Panther? At least Germans have PGrens against SU-85's (not that they're THAT reliable against them and it's muni heavy, but at least they damage and force off SU-85's). If the Soviet player went t3 or doesn't otherwise happen to have a couple SU-85's sitting around, a Panther can more or less just waltz in and laugh at the AT guns and Guard troops bouncing their shots off of it. It may not kill infantry that fast, but it still trumps whatever "counter" should exist for it.

Mines are a nice option, but what if you need to push into the Panthers? Not gonna help you there, that's for sure.

It might snipe infantry a little less effectively, but it's still too good against infantry/AT guns. Seriously, what infantry counters a Panther?

well that's a problem with sovs not having good infantry with AT capabilities, not with the panther being too good; its AI is quite lacking.
personally I don' really see why infantry should counter tanks in the first place, at nades and fausts are annoying enough, and if we want to give something similar to shrecks to soviets this is quite not the right time seeing the current balance

It might snipe infantry a little less effectively, but it's still too good against infantry/AT guns. Seriously, what infantry counters a Panther? At least Germans have PGrens against SU-85's (not that they're THAT reliable against them and it's muni heavy, but at least they damage and force off SU-85's). If the Soviet player went t3 or doesn't otherwise happen to have a couple SU-85's sitting around, a Panther can more or less just waltz in and laugh at the AT guns and Guard troops bouncing their shots off of it. It may not kill infantry that fast, but it still trumps whatever "counter" should exist for it.

Mines are a nice option, but what if you need to push into the Panthers? Not gonna help you there, that's for sure.

you really make it sound like soviets cant kill panthers. first of all, panthers arent a little less effective against inf, theyre a lot less effective. its true that infantry typically dont do much against panthers, but panthers take forever to kill a zis. as long as you AT nade or mine the panther, a zis can easily kill a panther. ive said this so many times, but guards arent meant to be used in the same way as pgrens. pgrens are only capable of dealing raw damage, guards are more of a support troop. they deal less damage, but theyre more durable and button allows the AT they are supporting to take more shots without recieving any damage. guards need to be used with combined arms, pgrens dont.

not sure why were talking about t3, but killing panthers with t34s isnt hard either since you typically outnumber them roughly 2 to 1.

well that's a problem with sovs not having good infantry with AT capabilities

Sov Armor is categorically better vs AI, meaning they already integrally hurt the fuck out of Ost infantry AT option (meaning Shreks).

As far as ATGs go (as the only remaining pure MP AT option), the same remains true, not only because of Sov Armor AI impetus, but also because Ost ATGs only have 4 man crew (3 man even, in the case of the PaK43). Meaning Sov Armor clears PaK crews far more effectively than Ost Armor clears ZiS crews, on the whole.

The same is even more true of Guard/PGrens. Sov Armor seriously bleeds the hell out of PGrens, whereas Guard have more models and are faced with less Armor AI. Commensurately Shreks (at the enormous cost of an additional 120 Muni ONTOP of the equivalent 360 MP for PGrens/Guard) do more direct dmg, whereas Guard do slower dmg at a more moderate rate, but hey, they are 120 Muni cheaper. Button is there to provide a meeting point in equity for Muni cost.

This relative infantry AT capacity is already accounted for, asymmetrically.
If Sov had Shreks, Ost Armor would be much more fucked against that, than what Sov armor currently is against Shreks, due to lacking AI on those same armor units.

Do you see what I mean? Its already accounted for in the current balance.

Su85 consistently snipes infantry, sometime even gubs 2 models. This should not be the case. It should miss as often as the elefant which NEVER hits infantry.

Do you see what I mean? Its already accounted for in the current balance.

I never said the opposite...I don't understand why you to have to respond to my posts when I even say that sovs are obviously OP right now.
What I said is still true, in a balanced meta soviets have less powerfull infantry AT solutions

I agree SU85 should not be able to snipe infantry like it does. Considering its cost and role, it should be just as bad if not worse than Panthers in killing infantry.

What I said is still true, in a balanced meta soviets have less powerfull infantry AT solutions

So what, when Sov Armor has so strong AI.

As I said, if Sov had Shreks, that would be far harder for Ost to deal with than Shreks are for Sov, owing to the difference in AT/AI impetus in faction asymmetry in Armor.

It is already taken into account in current balance. Sure, Ost has Shreks, but so does Sov Armor have better AI to punish them, as well as Guard which is present on almost half the Commanders, inorder to return a softer AT infantry punch vs less AI capable Ost Armor, for less Muni.