I updated my review to positive.

I'm going to be honest with you:

I liked CoH 3 from the start. Ever since the multiplayer beta, I really enjoyed the game. Where others saw the visual style and said it looked like shit, I really didn't mind. I forgave and played an apologetic for a lot of issues the game had during the multiplayer beta, because I expected them to be improved on or fixed by release. When that didn't happen, I was a little annoyed, but my friends were pissed. They all left the game in a huff. My favorite part about CoH, playing 4v4 with my friends, was now neutered. On top of that, they still only had 2 frigging maps for 4v4. I didn't much want to play CoH 3 after that. In fact, I didn't really want to play *any* CoH game. I left my negative review, and went off to play other things. Way of the Samurai 4 was fun. I even came back to TF2 for a while.

All the while, CoH 3 was getting updates. It was slow, but sure. When I finally came back about 2 weeks ago, a lot of the things that really annoyed me were patched out, and there was even a new 4v4 map to play on. On top of that, after having taken such a long break from CoH 2, I even came to prefer the faster match time of CoH 3. Honestly, I'm not the kind of guy who really loves the long, drawn out, WW1 trench warfare that happens past the 30 min mark to the rest of the game in CoH 2. In CoH 3, matches where your team is utterly demolished are mercifully short, and even matches can last up to about 40 minutes, but usually end around 25-30 mins, and I actually like that.

The long and short of it is this: the spam is still there, but I don't care as much any more. When I can't deal with the spam, it's a skill issue on my part. I feel like I have the tools to counter it, and when I don't, it's my own fault. I doubt that spam is going to go away until the developers pick up the pace with updates. After all; “Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game” - Soren Johnson. At the very least, I feel I have all the tools needed to deal with it.

Here's my updated review if you care to read it:
Show Spoiler

Did your friends ever come back to Coh3?

The only thing Coh3 has going for it is that it is new. So many players are bored of 10 years of Coh2 they will play anything else. Coh2 looks old compared to Coh3. But Coh2 beats Coh3 easily in all other aspects. The big three: features, game play, and excitement are much better in Coh2. But the only way Coh3 does not surpass Coh2 is if relic throws in the towel. Everything Coh3 is missing can be easily fixed or added to make it great.

It is interesting what percentage of players will gradually come back. And will it matter? Even after a sale Coh3 is struggling. Will it ever double player counts? Will it matter if only 20% of players come back?

PLAYING COH3
Since I am banned, I will never come back to Coh3. Q MODE mod almost makes Coh3 enjoyable for me. Online play is a big no thanks.

STREAMING COH3
I do not enjoy watching Coh3 streams. The audio is bad, cant see unit info, lack of specular lighting, and 100 other things just make it zero fun for me to watch.

I dont know how anyone watches a coh3 streamer without Celo? With no Celo and no visible kill counts a stream is just a bunch of units running around. Dont know who is playing or how well they are doing. Add this to the lack of good sound separation, slow TTK, etc. and I fall asleep instantly. All drama of the match is non-existent.

There seemed to be certain people that flocked to certain streams. Since Coh3 has caused so many streamers to quit, those "families" are basically gone also.

So you now have a game that is not fun to watch and many of the friends you liked hanging out with are gone.

Releasing Coh3 in such a bad state devastated the Coh community. The fact Sega/Relic could not see this coming says volumes.

THE DON
In Relics defense, people like you coming back supports their decision to release Coh3 early. And people all say Coh2 was trash and eventually got better.

Here's my updated review if you care to read it:
Show Spoiler

Glad to hear it, but I must admit I'm a bit surprised that you like CoH3 as a 4v4 main, it's where CoH3 performs the weakest by far imo.

It's not only the lack of maps, but something feels off from a faction design standpoint as well, and on a fundamental level. The unit roster of all factions except brits, especially in t4, feels like the CoH3 faction designers think that this community only plays 1v1 and 2v2 for some reason. I certainly don't miss the terminator rocket artillery and tank destroyer spam from CoH2 that got incredibly boring after so many years. But where are the premium medium and heavy tanks? Where is the meat?

I'm not asking for poorly designed superheavies like the JT or the ISU-152, not only did they create stalemates every time, they also forced the existence of overpowered Tank Destroyers to make them somewhat balanced. And then those OP TDs made heavier, medium and light tanks utterly useless etc.

But CoH3 definitely needs way more units like the Tiger (patched to death in DAK), Pershing, Croc, E8, Brummbar, Sherman crocodile etc etc. The late-game phase in CoH3's bigger teamgames usually boils down to medium tank spam paired with a couple tankhunters.... which is fine & fun in 1v1 or 2v2, but once you enter 4v4 it feels totally out of place (especially if the map is rather narrow/campy). Spamming cheap tanks is a playstyle that was never suited for a CoH 4v4 scenario at all in the last 17 years, it... just doesn't feel right or satisfying

Did your friends ever come back to Coh3?

The only thing Coh3 has going for it is that it is new. So many players are bored of 10 years of Coh2 they will play anything else. Coh2 looks old compared to Coh3. But Coh2 beats Coh3 easily in all other aspects. The big three: features, game play, and excitement are much better in Coh2. But the only way Coh3 does not surpass Coh2 is if relic throws in the towel. Everything Coh3 is missing can be easily fixed or added to make it great.

It is interesting what percentage of players will gradually come back. And will it matter? Even after a sale Coh3 is struggling. Will it ever double player counts? Will it matter if only 20% of players come back?

PLAYING COH3
Since I am banned, I will never come back to Coh3. Q MODE mod almost makes Coh3 enjoyable for me. Online play is a big no thanks.

STREAMING COH3
I do not enjoy watching Coh3 streams. The audio is bad, cant see unit info, lack of specular lighting, and 100 other things just make it zero fun for me to watch.

I dont know how anyone watches a coh3 streamer without Celo? With no Celo and no visible kill counts a stream is just a bunch of units running around. Dont know who is playing or how well they are doing. Add this to the lack of good sound separation, slow TTK, etc. and I fall asleep instantly. All drama of the match is non-existent.

There seemed to be certain people that flocked to certain streams. Since Coh3 has caused so many streamers to quit, those "families" are basically gone also.

So you now have a game that is not fun to watch and many of the friends you liked hanging out with are gone.

Releasing Coh3 in such a bad state devastated the Coh community. The fact Sega/Relic could not see this coming says volumes.

THE DON
In Relics defense, people like you coming back supports their decision to release Coh3 early. And people all say Coh2 was trash and eventually got better.

How'd you get banned from CoH 3?

Also, I think there are parts of CoH 3 that cannot be fixed. That's the audiovisuals. The dialogue and visuals, they didn't nail. And that will forever haunt CoH 3. These voice lines for units are not very special.

CoH 1 units used to insult everyone, the enemy, and even you the commander sometimes. They used to make funny jokes that are now too politically incorrect for SEGA to add. Very upsetting.

In CoH1, the Tiger crew compares the Tiger to a fat woman who drinks a lot of diesel fuel. I don't think that will ever happen ever again, unfortunately.

Glad to hear it, but I must admit I'm a bit surprised that you like CoH3 as a 4v4 main, it's where CoH3 performs the weakest by far imo.

It's not only the lack of maps, but something feels off from a faction design standpoint as well, and on a fundamental level. The unit roster of all factions except brits, especially in t4, feels like the CoH3 faction designers think that this community only plays 1v1 and 2v2 for some reason. I certainly don't miss the terminator rocket artillery and tank destroyer spam from CoH2 that got incredibly boring after so many years. But where are the premium medium and heavy tanks? Where is the meat?

I'm not asking for poorly designed superheavies like the JT or the ISU-152, not only did they create stalemates every time, they also forced the existence of overpowered Tank Destroyers to make them somewhat balanced. And then those OP TDs made heavier, medium and light tanks utterly useless etc.

But CoH3 definitely needs way more units like the Tiger (patched to death in DAK), Pershing, Croc, E8, Brummbar, Sherman crocodile etc etc. The late-game phase in CoH3's bigger teamgames usually boils down to medium tank spam paired with a couple tankhunters.... which is fine & fun in 1v1 or 2v2, but once you enter 4v4 it feels totally out of place (especially if the map is rather narrow/campy). Spamming cheap tanks is a playstyle that was never suited for a CoH 4v4 scenario at all in the last 17 years, it... just doesn't feel right or satisfying

This is because of the early war timeline. But considering they've added the Black Prince, I think all these super cool tanks will be there soon:

* Nashorn
* Archer
* AVRE (this was spotted in footage somewhere)

If they add some cool tanks like the Hetzer and stuff, that will be fun.

But I really don't want the return of late game super heavy tank and rocket arty spam. But actually, I think that's what the game needs like you said. As long as they don't nerf the LVs medium tanks.

But I really don't want the return of late game super heavy tank and rocket arty spam

Oh yeah for sure, no more 10000 frontal armor RNG + hitpoints + damage + range bullshit stalemates.

I think the way they implemented the Tiger in CoH3 is just perfect. You can feel its presence on the battlefield and it packs a massive punch, but it also gets penetrated regurarly by AT guns and the Hellcat for example

Too bad it's too hard to get now as DAK as I mentioned before.. and for Wehr it's only 1 specific BG

Did your friends ever come back to Coh3?

Nope. Not yet (I doubt they will for a while tbh)

THE DON
In Relics defense, people like you coming back supports their decision to release Coh3 early. And people all say Coh2 was trash and eventually got better.

Kind of... In all reality I shouldn't have preordered the game. That was a massive mistake that I made and I admit it. I wouldn't have bought the game on release had I waited, to be frank. But for better or for worse, I bought it; the game is still in my library, and if my feelings about the game change on return to it, then my review should too.

Glad to hear it, but I must admit I'm a bit surprised that you like CoH3 as a 4v4 main, it's where CoH3 performs the weakest by far imo.

Honestly, yeah. 4v4 in CoH 3 has its moments where you really feel like something starts to click. Its pretty fun in the early game but I definitely agree with you that the medium tank spam and late game feels like crap.

Maybe I like 4v4 so much because I came back as an allied US main still thinking DAK was overpowered hahaha. Don't get it twisted, though, I go axis and allies. Usually I play the underdog factions so I feel like I won from skill instead of units being overtuned. I was able to play DAK with some success, after a friend of mine told me a much more cohesive panzergrenadier build for 4v4 (which doesn't work in 1v1, let me tell you). Wehr is tough if you get to late game without picking the right battlegroup for the situation and especially so if you lose panzer 4s. Way tough I think. Mines and AT guns get you places, but I wouldn't say they're all you need when the crusader wave crashes upon your frontline lmao.

Anyways my views on balance don't matter much because I'm like rank 1,000 in any faction I play, but the ELO system does a fair job of putting me in equal games I think. And again, even when it doesn't, matches are short and sweet, so it's not as tilting or exhausting to me as matches in CoH 2.

It's not only the lack of maps...Spamming cheap tanks is a playstyle that was never suited for a CoH 4v4 scenario at all in the last 17 years, it... just doesn't feel right or satisfying

+1 to all.

Too bad it's too hard to get now as DAK as I mentioned before.. and for Wehr it's only 1 specific BG

Dear god yeah 280 fuel. You really have to completely forgo building panzer 3s if you want to reasonably bring it onto the field before the match ends, or someone has to spam resource caches.

Kind of... In all reality I shouldn't have preordered the game. That was a massive mistake ...

I don't think you can feel too bad about supporting the company that makes the best RTS ever. Just think of it as an expensive alpha that doesn't fully come out until summer 2024 and you will feel much better.

I have to admit, David Phan is starting to convince me the game will continue to get better.

But I also believed a lot of the propaganda we were fed before the game released and we all know how that turned out. None of it was true.

Out of interest: What were the main improvements that made you change your review?

Regarding some points that you made (I hope this does not stray from the topic): I have only played the pre-alpha, I found the matches usually too short. A main mechanic is to keep my units alive, but especially the units bought later will see battle only a handful of times maximum. Didn't really like that one.
The CoH2 late game arty+TD spam is partially a map design issue. The maps in 3v3 and 4v4 are so narrow. The amount of firepower in each "corridor" is crazy in the late game, anything below a heavy tank usually doesn't cut it and flanking is nigh impossible, especially if you invest in 2-3 defensive mines.
The few open maps (such as Steppe and General Mud) are often vetoed out and have some other issues, such as a huge advantage for OKW, UKF and USF due to forward retreat points etc. But these are maps where mediums are viable to the very last second of the game, we just rarely see them.

Anyways my views on balance don't matter much because I'm like rank 1,000 in any faction I play, but the ELO system does a fair job of putting me in equal games I think.

This is the other thing that would have really pulled me to Coh3, match making. The only thing I ever complained about in Coh2 was match making. 98% of my bitching was trying to get Relic to fix the match maker.

But Coh3's release was so bad, there are not enough players left to make decent matches.

So I may have finally got my wish of an updated match maker just to have it ripped away a month after release.

But Coh3's release was so bad, there are not enough players left to make decent matches.

Not the most meaningful sample size, but a month ago I played like ~20 2v2s and not a single one felt like mismatched teams. Always less than 5 minutes queue time and always a full top 300 lobby or better. I was playing DAK where I am around rank 50

Not the most meaningful sample size, but a month ago I played like ~20 2v2s and not a single one felt like mismatched teams. Always less than 5 minutes queue time and always a full top 300 lobby or better. I was playing DAK where I am around rank 50

Didn't feel out of place for you, but in CoH2 getting matched up 200-300 ranks is quite a harsh difference. You'll see feel the difference instantly if you're the lower ELO player.
Since CoH3 has only half the amount of players in the leaderboard, the skill difference between a 100 and 300 is probably even larger than in CoH2.

Didn't feel out of place for you, but in CoH2 getting matched up 200-300 ranks is quite a harsh difference. You'll see feel the difference instantly if you're the lower ELO player.
Since CoH3 has only half the amount of players in the leaderboard, the skill difference between a 100 and 300 is probably even larger than in CoH2.

If I got a rank 300 opponent, then his teammate was usually better ranked while my teammate was a bit worse. Overall in CoH3 you seem to get balanced matches in short time mostly.

In CoH2 I waited 8 minutes (MM time cap) just to get dumped into a super unbalanced trash match wayyyy too often in the last years. And I have no idea why but 90% of my CoH2 4v4 random games were a complete dumpster fire since 2022. I am sure Rosbone has some stories about that as well

Show Spoiler

2v2 gameplay in COH3 is complete trash compared to COH2. For this same reason of spamming mediums.

As much as everyone hated the double AT meta / heavy tank meta. This is the result of people complaining about it. Or just being out of touch with the community.

Your response is weird. Considering you don’t want to spam mediums? But also don’t want heavy tank meta? Which one? There is no happy in between. If heavies suck – no one will build them, instead they would spam mediums? If heavies are good – everyone will build them. The big problem if they make heavies good in COH3 is the TDs are terrible compared to COH2. Bro just spam 3 hellcats. A good player will have double AT behind the heavy and your hellcats will get one tapped considered Tiger has same range lol. Most people will play to what is the best way to win/easiest to play.

Even though the TD/Heavy tank meta in COH2 is annoying. There is a dance of cat and mouse, and it creates intense standoffs. The tension before the big push or the heavies slowly creeping forward.

Now it’s blobs of mediums. There is no variety. The role of TD in general has practically been removed from COH3 with range differences being so small its negligible. Especially with momentum and stopping the hellcat is almost always going to get shot in return from the tank shooting. If the enemy tank is driving towards the hellcat. Kitting is not a thing anymore. On top of the Brits don’t even have a TD?

It’s opinionated some people prefer this new gameplay. But I feel it’s a lot easier to just overwhelm your opponent now if you have superior numbers in armor. AT guns die almost instantly the minute the tank gets on top of it and with TD’s being essentially removed its pretty easy to just ctr group 2 all your armor and right click behind your opponent’s AT guns. Even more so if they have no armor or they are behind in terms of fuel.

Out of interest: What were the main improvements that made you change your review?

To be completely honest, it was a combination of coming back to the game after a 5 months hiatus, the nerfing of the really egregious 4v4 OP bullshit, the buffs to Mgs, and the ELO system that ended up making my 4v4 experience way more positive I think. Also, playing allies probably helped.

I said in my original review that it was going to take a shit ton of patches to unfuck the game. The game seems fairly unfucked by this point. At least for little donny 4 digit rank gamer. I can't speak for all the high-speed, high-octane rank <200 turbogamers. Like I mentioned in the OP, after not having played CoH 1 or CoH 2 in a while, the faster match speed ended up becoming a plus for me. I don't know if they slowed it down marginally or what, but I'm totally fine with games lasting a maximum of 40 minutes, not 40 minutes on average lmao.

My recommendation is still very much "wait and see", but since I'm starting to enjoy the game again, I decided to change it to positive. Like I said, I really liked the game in the multiplayer beta before everyone "optimized the fun out of the game".

4v4 might still be a spam fest but at least that doesn't come until later lmao.

Regarding some points that you made (I hope this does not stray from the topic): I have only played the pre-alpha, I found the matches usually too short. A main mechanic is to keep my units alive, but especially the units bought later will see battle only a handful of times maximum. Didn't really like that one.
The CoH2 late game arty+TD spam is partially a map design issue. The maps in 3v3 and 4v4 are so narrow. The amount of firepower in each "corridor" is crazy in the late game, anything below a heavy tank usually doesn't cut it and flanking is nigh impossible, especially if you invest in 2-3 defensive mines...

Regarding those two issues with the game, the matches are still pretty short. I think 25 mins is the average for a 4v4, and 40 mins maximum usually. Getting units wiped really really hurts because they'll see combat, but they'll be losing it lmao. There are certain things each faction has to somewhat mitigate the loss like wehr's purchased vet 1, US global BAR upgrade, UKF infantry training. DAK is the only faction that kinda doesn't. Losing a panzergrenadier is a massive massive issue because their weapon upgrade is 100 munitions and panzergrenadiers are trash without vet.

4v4 maps have a lot of flanking routes though. There are some places that are way more easily defended, but at the same time there are others that are difficult to hold because they've got a lof of ways to maneuver around defenders.

If I got a rank 300 opponent, then his teammate was usually better ranked while my teammate was a bit worse. Overall in CoH3 you seem to get balanced matches in short time mostly.

In CoH2 I waited 8 minutes (MM time cap) just to get dumped into a super unbalanced trash match wayyyy too often in the last years. And I have no idea why but 90% of my CoH2 4v4 random games were a complete dumpster fire since 2022. I am sure Rosbone has some stories about that as well

I just realized I mixed up both systems: CoH3 gives you ELO, in 2 you can only see the rank, so they are not really comparable in that regard.

Looking through your last matches, I guess Relic managed to remove the worst matchmakings (dumping top players with newbies into the same lobby), but at the same time there's regularly matches with ELO differences of 200 per player. I don't know which ELO system Relic chose to use, but in AoE2 a difference of 200 ELO lead to an expected win chance of 75%.

In the end I think CoH2 4v4 is a special place. I play mostly 2v2 and 3v3 as an AT and usually (with some hick ups obviously) found an okay match.

Your response is weird. Considering you don’t want to spam mediums? But also don’t want heavy tank meta? Which one?

Nah I'm totally fine with heavy tank meta in teamgames, I just don't want "superheavies" again with massive armor + hp + range + damage. They were just extremely unhealthy for the game in CoH2 I think.
Playing with breakthrough tanks like Sherman Bulldozer or Brummbar (both are way too weak in CoH3) or heavy tanks like Tiger, Churchill Croc or Pershing paired with AT guns or stuff like Marders would feel way more fun & natural to play in teamgames than this degenerate medium spam.

The Tiger in CoH3 as I stated before feels very impactful but without being super OP and everything bouncing or anything. They're just too hard to get now with DAK tech, Wehr's massive cp requirement and faster tickrate. But I do actually want to see way more units like the Tiger in the future, on top of some love for existing units like Brummbar or Dozer

It’s opinionated some people prefer this new gameplay. But I feel it’s a lot easier to just overwhelm your opponent now if you have superior numbers in armor. AT guns die almost instantly the minute the tank gets on top of it and with TD’s being essentially removed its pretty easy to just ctr group 2 all your armor and right click behind your opponent’s AT guns. Even more so if they have no armor or they are behind in terms of fuel.

Agreed with this last part.