DAK Redesign

Throughout the history of Coh games, the factions rarely stay the way they were designed for the entire duration of the game’s lifespan. OKW and USF changed substantially and PE had its fair share of changes (although not as many as they ought to have had) as well. So factions are usually re-adjusted as they become more played and the kinks are worked out. This thread aims at getting out in front of this early because having played with the DAK a bit, while they are fairly well designed, relative to some of the previous factions at launch, I feel there’s better options available here.

To qualify my opinions, in Coh1 I was a top 200 ladder player and in Coh2 I’m currently 350ish, but I have not really played anywhere near as many games of Coh2 as I’ve been off doing real-life stuff ever since it came out basically. That’s my reference when I make the suggestions that I do.

Current design



Let’s take some observations of the current design and what personally I find stands to be improved:

Deployment System:

- Some people seem to be steadfastly against the deployment system, where the words ‘call in meta’ seem to be lurking beneath the resentment. Given the saga that was balancing Coh2 call in meta, you can absolutely understand why and I feel the deployment system has elements of these issues. My own main gripe with this mechanic is the ‘group’ and discount emphasis, which is balanced against having a long cooldown, which to me feels like not only a crude way of trying to balance this dynamic, it also skews balancing the individual units (as you’ll always perceive them after having been called in from a call in). You also always seem to end up with a plethora of 250 halftracks, regardless of whether you want them or not, and given that population cap is highly limiting in Coh3, not having the player agency to call in the unit you want without the burden of the 250, is a problem. Another problem is the way you upgrade the call in, it’s a blanket upgrade, either all the call ins change or none of them do, which again removes player agency (some players may always want that Pak call in). This really ought to be more granular. The upgrade also makes Panzer Jagers permanently unavailable, which isn’t great. However, having thought about it a bit, I actually feel the deployment system can be much improved and actually allow for significant strategic and build order depth if done correctly.

Tier 2.5

- I feel 2.5 (armoured support elements) is very much a pigeon holed tier which won’t see play. Both units are quite niche and the tech as a whole doesn’t play into the overall tech tree the same way tier 1.5 (fire support elements) does.

Linear Design

The developers themselves admit the design is linear, which is not as interesting as non linear tech tress.

Healing Is Tied to A 6-Pop Vehicle.

Its fairly annoying having 6 pop tied up in a vehicle that will for a majority of the time sit in your base.

These are essentially my main problems with the way the teching tree functions currently. This is what I propose gets changed:

New Design



The Description

I’m going to explain the changes first and then explain the rational after. The teching costs are rough and open to being changed.

First off, tier 0 stays basically the same except that it unlocks the grenade and 250 halftrack upgrades in the armoury immediately. Both of these upgrades should have a fuel cost added to them, it seems weird that they don’t have one already. I would also add another upgrade to the armoury for base headling which is also unlocked by tier 0. This means healing is no longer tied to the medical truck but the medical truck itself becomes more a unit you use for in field reinforcement and maintaining map presence. I feel simple base healing like this is a formula that should just not be messed with. Whenever a new take on healing is done it never ends up being better. Then after that, this is where things get different. Instead of being linear, you can now either tech T1 or T2.

Tier 1 has as a default the MG34 and the Medical truck. It also unlocks the MG34 upgrade for the Panzer Grenadiers. Tier 1 also now has two side tiers instead of one, which I call 1.5 A and 1.5 B. 1.5 A has access to Assault Grens and the Panzer Jagers and also unlocks the increased squad sizes upgrade in the armoury. 1.5 B has the ISG and the Pak, as well as the AP rounds upgrade. Incidentally, the hollow round and AP round ability for both the ISG and the Pak should be locked behind this ability instead of vet.

Tier 2 has the Flak-halftrack and the observation halftrack as standard, but it also unlocks an MP40 upgrade for Panzer Grens (although you could use MP44s if you really want to full PE on this). Tier 2 also has two side tiers instead of one, which I call 2.5 A and 2.5 B. 2.5 A has access to the the 232 Armoured Car and also the Puma. I replaced the recover halftrack with the puma because the DAK have so many repair options already (too many to be fair) that it was totally superfluous. The Recover HT feels a much better fit for a doctrine or even Wehr. 2.5 A also unlocks the smoke screen upgrade in the armoury. 2.5 B instead unlocks the Stug III D and also the Marder, as well as the emergency repairs upgrade in the armoury.

Tier 3 becomes available once any of the side tiers have been purchased. It contains the Panzer 3 and the Panzer 3 Flamethrower variant as well as unlocking a Panzer Schrek upgrade for Panzer Jagers and Stg44s for Panzer Grenadiers. The Panzer 3 Flamethrower variant is replaced by the Recovery HT in the doctrine. This tier no longer has a call ins upgrade but instead two side tiers; 3.5 A and 3.5 B. The first, 3.5 A, unlocks the tiger and the Jagd Panzer IV and also the Blitz upgrade (or whatever that is called) in the armoury. 3.5 B unlocks the walking stuka and the flak 36 as well as the global repairs buff in the armoury.

That’s the basic tier structure sorted, now for the deployment system. This radically changes. First off, I would remove all the 250 halftracks that come bundled in the deployment and also remove the infantry add ons for the deployments once they get upgraded. What you see is what you get. Also, all call-ins should cost exactly the same, if not a slight premium over, what they cost in the standard tech. The deployment balancing relative to normal tech should basically hinge on a trade off of instant build time but a long recharge rather than the discount system they have in place now. Next, all the deployments has individual upgrades in the Armoury, which change what the call in would be, so that you have more control over what units you have available to call in.

Note that each deployment requires a different upgrade just to be used for the first time, this upgrade requiring any tier. For the first deployment level, all the units are the same as they are now; Assault Grens, Panzer Jagers, ISG and Pak. However, once you have any side tier, you can upgrade any deployment (presuming you already have the first upgrade of that respective deployment). For example, Assault grenadiers can be replaced with a 232, Panzer Jagers can be replaced with the Puma, the ISG with the Stug III D and the Pak with the Marder. Finally, once you get any 2 side techs or T3, you can upgrade the deployment again. This time, the 232 becomes a Panzer III, the Puma becomes a Jagd Panzer IV, the Stug D becomes a Flampanzer and finally the Marder becomes the Flak 36. Its highly important to stress that each deployment’s upgrades are totally separate from the other deployment upgrades and also that the fuel costs are for demonstrative purposes.

The Logic

So this is how the logic goes. I’ll start with the tiers, a T1 vs T2 split in the early game is just more interesting than linear tech in my opinion. Tier 1 is now cheaper so it should allow players to get MG 34s faster, this is similar to when OKW had their tech and medic upgrades split to make their teching less of an up front cost. Likewise, since the most powerful units of T2 are locked behind side tiers, T2 is much less of a commitment, allowing you to get a Recon HT earlier. In many ways, this works a lot like how the original PE worked in that you could build the tier to get access to some of the units but others were locked behind an upgrade. This allowed for a lot more flexibility in teching, as no one tech was so much of a commitment. Having T1 unlock the MG34, T2 unlock MP40s and T3 unlock Stg44s for panzer grens is an interesting nuance that the original PE had and I can’t see how the DAK would be worse off with it.

T1.5 A is the most infantry orientated tech path, however it lacks heavy weapons of any kind. Its aggressive and mobile. T1.5 B is much more static and support weapon orientated. It’s the most natural ‘camp’ tech path. T2.5 A is again aggressive but this time mechanised, its highly mobile and is somewhat reminiscent of Luchs and Puma combo in OKW. Finally 2.5 B is mobile, but not quite as mobile, given the vehicles are turretless, their more focused on long range firepower. This setup also removes the original tier 2.5 that would have seen little play, as the Recovery HT is gone and Tier 2.5 B is much more well rounded relative to the other options available.

Once you have one of the tiers, your options become interesting. You can either go for the upgrades in the armoury, side tech into one of the other tiers, either from T1 to T2 from T2 to T1, or indeed for T1.5A to T1.5B or T2.5A to T2.5B, or any combination really, but you can also go straight to T3. You might want to do this to rush out a Flamepanzer in the same way you rush an Ostwind in Coh2, or go for that fast medium. Then in T3 you also have to decide whether to stall for Tiger, get more substantial tank destroyers in the form of the Jagd Panzer or get those more powerful support elements.

There are a plethora of teching paths basically.

How do the deployments factor into this? Basically by making the other teching choices yet more flexible by giving you the option to call in units that you didn’t tech for in your tech path. For example, let’s say you tech T1 and then T1.5, leaving out possible doctrinal vehicles, how would you get a light vehicle to round out your composition? You could tech T2 or alternatively, you could upgrade Deployment 1 twice and call in a 232. Another example, let’s say you go T2 -> T2.5A, you get a 232 but you your opponent has gone Chafee and you don’t have the fuel for a Puma or side teching Marder, you could either tech T1 or upgrade deployment 4 and panic call in a Pak.

The advantage is you can augment whatever your tech choices are and react quickly to your opponent’s choices. Naturally you have to point out the disadvantages. This form of getting units is riskier because if you lose that unit you called in, you’re going to have to wait a whole 6 minutes to call it in again or do the teching afterall. This method, while seemingly a cheaper alternative to teching to certain units, its also is just much less efficient for getting access to all those units. In the example I’ve created, getting all the T1.5 units via deployments is 50 mp 5 fuel more expensive than if you had just teched those units directly, but a straight tech to a Pak is 10 fuel cheaper, assuming you already have T1 in both scenarios. It’s a trade off of flexibility and reproducibility for cheaper straight teching costs. The deployments also don’t give you access to the upgrades.

Changes to Some units

250 HT:

This really needs a Pak36 upgrade, for a unit that is clearly designed to add flexibility to the army comp of DAK, I can’t see why a light mobile AT option isn’t there. In my design, this would compliment T1.5A and T1.5B nicely.

Panzer Jagers:

These really should have a Panzer Schrek upgrade at T3 to help them scale. And ditch the MG34 upgrade.

Flak HT.

I would be way happier if this worked a lot more like the OKW Flak Halftrack, that was a way more interesting unit.

Conclusion

This design has a lot of advantages over the current design.

- The teching options are significantly more diverse, with a non-linear tech tree and fairly esoteric tech options removed.

- The deployment system is tidied up and tied into the tier system more elegantly. It has a clear cut purpose of adding rounding out your composition and tech choices by allowing you to ‘tech’ certain units without all of the upfront costs while also having considerable draw backs relative to teching itself. It’s a trade-off.

- Healing is easier.

This is just what I would do anyway, let me know your thoughts.

I think some of your ideas have merit, however I'm not sure how much of it is possible considering there is no Puma in the game and I don't believe you can upgrade the individual deployment options like that.

So it might be best to try and mod your ideas in and see how they work out, that usually is the best solution because you can see both how well it bodes and also prove your point to the rest of the community. That's also what I'm going to be doing as well.

I think some of your ideas have merit, however I'm not sure how much of it is possible considering there is no Puma in the game and I don't believe you can upgrade the individual deployment options like that.

So it might be best to try and mod your ideas in and see how they work out, that usually is the best solution because you can see both how well it bodes and also prove your point to the rest of the community. That's also what I'm going to be doing as well.

Will it have MOD tooling like that? I'm a programmer so I'd have no issue doing that.

Re the Puma, I thought maybe the Italian Medium tank would also work but the Puma to me seems like the perfect fit.

Isn't the 8 RAD basically the puma?

I like some of your ideas. 250 getting a light at gun helps bridge that gap. Perhaps modifying the autocannon upgrade to switch to AP rounds like the coh2 sherman could help, or just overall buffing the damage and pen.

I feel like the panzer jaegers are in a good spot. They are strong with a really good upgrade but they aren't spammable thanks to the long cool down.

I also feel like DAK doesn't need panzershrecks. The marder just needs to not be ass. All the fixed turret tanks handle like trash and i skip them all the time unless I'm desperate.

Isn't the 8 RAD basically the puma?

The 8 rad is a puma huffing crack. Like the CoH 2 puma but shoots half as fast and just as accurately vs infantry as a 222.

Isn't the 8 RAD basically the puma?

Isn’t the 232 the 222 on crack? I’d have to play with it some more but my first impression was that it was closer to the luchs. You’d think with a 20mm auto cannon it wouldn’t have the penetration of a 50mm gun. To be clear I’m refering to the Coh2 puma, not the Coh1 variant.

Re the Panzer Jagers, I just think for what is supposed to be an AT squad, an upgrade that helps them in that role, rather than anti infantry would probably make more sense. Otherwise they’ll end up being kinda Guards ‘counter everything’ like.

Part of the reason I want the 250 to have a pak36 upgrade is so I can pretend DAK is PE, I’ll have my PGs, my infantry halftrack, my mortar half track, my light at halftrack, my armoured car and my marder.

Part of the reason I want the 250 to have a pak36 upgrade is so I can pretend DAK is PE, I’ll have my PGs, my infantry halftrack, my mortar half track, my light at halftrack, my armoured car and my marder.

Please god no. You don't know what kind of monkey's paw wish this is. It's already painful enough the Wespe fucks nearly all Allied tanks in the ass from any side, but you wanna gibe the 250 ANOTHER reason to get spammed? Be still my beating heart. Hopefully this upgrade would only be good enough to beat other light behicles slowly?

Isn’t the 232 the 222 on crack? I’d have to play with it some more but my first impression was that it was closer to the luchs. You’d think with a 20mm auto cannon it wouldn’t have the penetration of a 50mm gun. To be clear I’m refering to the Coh2 puma, not the Coh1 variant.

Whatever it's most similar to, it is indeed on crack.

Please god no. You don't know what kind of monkey's paw wish this is. It's already painful enough the Wespe fucks nearly all Allied tanks in the ass from any side, but you wanna gibe the 250 ANOTHER reason to get spammed? Be still my beating heart. Hopefully this upgrade would only be good enough to beat other light behicles slowly?

For sure, I think the main problem with the 250 is that it comes in the package bundle of the Deployments, so you always end up with them. I doubt players would build them s much if they were not included.

For sure, I think the main problem with the 250 is that it comes in the package bundle of the Deployments, so you always end up with them. I doubt players would build them s much if they were not included.

You'd think that they would give DAK some kind of "Withdraw and Refit" ability to dispose of unwanted 250s if they were going down this deployment system rabbit hole.

For sure, I think the main problem with the 250 is that it comes in the package bundle of the Deployments, so you always end up with them. I doubt players would build them s much if they were not included.

Their health scales extremely well with upgrades tho.
2 of them are staple for me.

You'd think that they would give DAK some kind of "Withdraw and Refit" ability to dispose of unwanted 250s if they were going down this deployment system rabbit hole.

That would help but it would be just easier if they didn't give you the 250. It would be a bit odd for you to call in a combat group, only to immediately withdraw half of it.

That wouldn't solve the pop cap issue either where in the late game, its kinda hard to use them as you have to have plenty of free pop cap. If you want to call in a P4, but don't have the pop cap to for in the infantry as well, well I guess you're out of luck.

To me the deployment system just needs a rethink.

Their health scales extremely well with upgrades tho.
2 of them are staple for me.

I like the 250 as a unit, don't get me wrong, some thought clearly went into their design. My criticism is really aimed at the deployment system.

Some interesting points Aftermath. Really well thought out post.

You'd think that they would give DAK some kind of "Withdraw and Refit" ability to dispose of unwanted 250s if they were going down this deployment system rabbit hole.

Agree with this, as Katitof says the 250 is a staple for me too, but it would still be good to find another use for them later on in the game. I never really feel as if I need more than two of them at a time, and the waste of popcap kind of puts me off calling more in as the game progesses.

I'm sure the deployment system will change over time, it does feel a bit weird that you're only option as far as AT infantry is to call them in on a halftrack.

Will it have MOD tooling like that? I'm a programmer so I'd have no issue doing that.

Re the Puma, I thought maybe the Italian Medium tank would also work but the Puma to me seems like the perfect fit.

If you right click on Company of Heroes 3 in your Steam games library and then go to Manage, Browse local files it will send you to the game's main directory. There you can find the EssenceEditor.exe which from what I understand are both the new modding tools from CoH2 combined with the WorldBuilder, which creates maps but don't quote me on that because I am not fully aware of all of it's capabilities just yet.

I'm modding the game as we speak to showcase some of my ideas for balance and design as well, and also for fun of course.

Isn't the 8 RAD basically the puma?

What we have in the game is the Sd. Kfz. 231, it's a bit of an older design heavy armored car that they used and was mostly used for reconnaissance.

The Puma's designation is the Sd. Kfz. 234/2 which was a bit of an updated design with a different engine and a few other changes but the base chassis had a few more variants with different guns compared to our 8 Rad, namely the Puma and the Sd. Kfz. 234/4 which had a Pak 40 mounted in a fixed superstructure similar to the Marder series of Panzerjägers.

That would help but it would be just easier if they didn't give you the 250. It would be a bit odd for you to call in a combat group, only to immediately withdraw half of it.

That wouldn't solve the pop cap issue either where in the late game, its kinda hard to use them as you have to have plenty of free pop cap. If you want to call in a P4, but don't have the pop cap to for in the infantry as well, well I guess you're out of luck.

To me the deployment system just needs a rethink.

I agree. It also is pretty silly to give resources back when the deployed bundle is already discounted and very cost-efficient. The only thing I can think of would be some kind of "Scrap for parts" ability where you could "merge" the 250 into another vehicle to repair it? Either that or some kind of permanent "hull down" that turns the 250 into a bunker/fighting position and removes the pop cap upkeep?

If you right click on Company of Heroes 3 in your Steam games library and then go to Manage, Browse local files it will send you to the game's main directory. There you can find the EssenceEditor.exe which from what I understand are both the new modding tools from CoH2 combined with the WorldBuilder, which creates maps but don't quote me on that because I am not fully aware of all of it's capabilities just yet.

I'm modding the game as we speak to showcase some of my ideas for balance and design as well, and also for fun of course.

I’ll have a play round with it and see how it goes.

I’ll have a play round with it and see how it goes.

Good luck and keep us updated if you wish.

Don't be afraid to ask if you have any questions as well, I've also been modding the previous 2 games so I have some prior knowledge and experience as to how it sort of works.

I thought of some other changes I would make, I've updated the original post but in summary:

- 1. Removal of Schrek upgrade from Panzer Grens at T3.

I rethought this idea due to feedback. Basically, I think now that it would make more sense if only Panzer Jagers got the schrek, to keep them distinct (why would you build Panzer Jagers if you could just get Panzer Grens and upgrade them? Tank Busters in PE basically had this problem). The idea of Panzer Grens having both a schrek and a snare isn't appealing either.

Instead PGs get the Stg44 upgrade available at T3. This presents an interesting choice when advancing through the tiers, as you could either get MP40s or MG34s and specialise in short range or long range respectively, or you could hold off and get Stgs which are an improvement at all ranges. It adds yet another dimension to the teching choices.

- 2. Adding the Jagd Panzer to Tier 3.5A.

This requires some explanation.

Currently if you want to get a 'hardy' tank destroyer (ie not the Marder) in the DAK late game, you have to upgrade the call ins and then you can call in double Stug Gs. Now, leaving the current performance of Stug Gs out of the discussion, this is basically your strongest dedicated mobile AT option. However, having it locked behind the Deployment makes them harder to obtain, not only because you have extra teching to do, you also may have to wait 6 minutes, its exclusive with the other call ins, but you also have to call in two of them, which is pretty inflexible if you're tight on pop cap.

To me, it only makes sense that an option for a heavier tank destroyer exists in T3, so you can avoid the finickiness of the deployment, but also because the P3 is a relatively weak medium (rightfully) when compared to the Sherman un-gunned and the P4 up-armoured, so having a strong tank destroyer to compensate makes sense to me. This is basically the logic of the Soviet late game with the strong SU-85 and the relatively weak T-34/76. True you have the Flak36, but that's fairly static by comparison and its difficult to be aggressive with it. The Marder is good but its not as resilient and requires more baby sitting.

Which tank destroyer? I'm open to suggestion. The Stug G is already available in the DAK but its also used by Wehr. The Jagd Panzer and Hetzer could be options, my own preference being the former. Semovente 75/34 also could be an option.

Alright, having played around with the modding tools, I came up with a Proof of Concept that tackles 95% of the issues I had with the design of DAK: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2947341907

Features

HQ



The HQ hasn't really changed very much, partially because it didn't need to but also because the modding tools didn't really allow for it much in practice. The important thing to note is that T1 or T2 can be constructed right out of the gate, addressing my issue with the linearity.

T1



T1 has now 2 side tiers instead of 1. The first upgrade on the left unlocks the second column and the second upgrade unlocks the third column. After putting my ideas into practice, I swapped the flak halftrack and the Assault Grens in the tech tree. It just made more sense and having played around with it a bit, it plays well.

T2



T2 also has 2 side tiers, the first also unlocking the second column and the second unlocking the third column. The recovery HT is gone and I substituted the Carro Armato for the Puma, as it was the closest alterative for the POC. I also changed the stats of the Carro Armato making it fairly useless against infantry, so it feels basically like the Puma in Coh2 and fits the role I intended for it nicely. Relic would ideally use the real thing though. The other unit that saw changes was...

Panzergrenadiers



They now have the MP40 and MP43 upgrades. MP40s and MG34s were swapped from from original plan, MP40s get unlocked when any T1 side tech is purchased and MG34s come from any T2 side tech. The MP43s come with T3. This upgrade dichotomy adds another interesting dimension to the tech paths.

T3



T3 can be reached when any 2 side techs or any side tech and both T1 and T2 are purchased. This allows for up to 6 different tech paths to T3! Within T3 itself, the entire top row is unlocked immediately. I found in practice, locking the Stug behind the same tech as the Tiger made little sense. The first side tier upgrade unlocks the tiger and the second side tier upgrade unlocks the Stuka and Flak. One nice benefit of this setup is that directly teching Tiger is much cheaper, as you don't need to go through the deployments. Speaking of which...

Deployments



Within the armoury, I moved out all the upgrades to the respective tiers that unlock them, as this made more intuitive sense to me. I kept the grenades and 250 upgrade here, as well as adding an upgrade for base healing. This means you don't have to tech T1 to get heals or use the med truck. As for the deployments, all deployments are locked behind upgrades here, which is what he icons denote. For example, the assault gren icon unlocks the assault gren deployment. Once that is unlocked, you can upgrade the panzer 3 one below it and that will replace that deployment and only that one!



This means you can pick and choose which deployments you want with a lot more granularity. However, the mod tooling currently has a lot of limitations, so I was not able to edit the deployments. This means they still come with the 250, sadly, but presumably we can update this in the future. You're also not able to create new deployments, so the armoury is missing that middle row of deployment upgrades I detailed in my original plan. But for getting the idea across, this works!

Notes

In creating this MOD, I changed the following:

- Assault Grens and Panzerjägers can't repair anymore as I feel this was overkill.

- All upgrades that were in the armoury like grenades etc were reduced in manpower but now have a fuel cost, to balance things out and make teching yet more interesting.

Aside from these changes, I have not touched the balance, as this MOD is purely a POC for the redesign. None of the other factions were changed. Nor were the battlegroups touched.

Conclusion

After having modded my ideas, I'm fairly happy with the result! I addressed 95% of the issues I had with DAK and the remaining ones I couldn't change due to limitations with the MOD tooling. I feel this setup is outright superior to what we have now, it allows for significantly more tech paths, upgrade choices and also makes the Deployment system less of a standalone gimick but something tied into the tech tree nicely. All that remains is to hope Relic takes some inspiration! Give it a go and let me know your thoughts! If anyone has feedback or wants to play with me on it, shoot me a message!