3 minutes 221 is obscene

You still do not realize that nobody respects your opinions on here? How many times do we have to repeat this? You're going to be mocked for as long as you're here.

This is forum and you should respect other users.

What you are describing is called trolling but you can not bully me out of here.

I'm going to repeat this all over again.

221 and the 223 are the same vehicle functionally, you do not spawn a new one by upgrading it, so I don't care which one specifically generates resources and which one doesn't.

You not actual repeating anything since this is a new claim and a false one I might add.

223 has more utility and better stats than 221 so they are not the same vehicle, this is simply not an upgrade that provides a pintle MG or armor. That is why the vehicle changes name.

6pounder/ZiS > M1 ATG
PTRS are better at dealing with LVs because they cannot miss them, and fire faster.
PIATs are trash but UKF have linear teching which means they will always have access to a ATG unlike Soviets.

Nothing here is relevant.

Saying that the Kubel MG34 has inferior DPS to the MG42 on the 221 shows that you don't actually play this game, especially since it has the same effective DPS as a Ober squad without ever having to get in close range unlike the 221.By the time a 221 comes out, you can tech up shortly afterwards Lieu with handheld AT.

There is no such answer for USF if a Kubel is the first thing they see.

Kubel does not have the same "effective" DPS as an Ober squad.

If in your opinion Kubel has better DPS than 221 and 221 is not an issue because counter comes shortly after you should be arguing with OP who finds 221 more dangerous than kubel and not me.

(edited)

Saying that the Kubel MG34 has inferior DPS to the MG42 on the 221 shows that you don't actually play this game, especially since it has the same effective DPS as a Ober squad without ever having to get in close range unlike the 221.By the time a 221 comes out, you can tech up shortly afterwards Lieu with handheld AT.

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Vipper's right mate. Although Kubelwagen has better DPS than the Obers' LMG up to 8 range, past that, it's way less, all the way up to max range where Obers LMG alone literally does twice as much DPS as the Kubel.

Are you talking about Obers before their LMG? Because even that's wrong. Obers still do more damage max range than the Kubel.

221 also has better DPS at all ranges except 30-35 compared to the kubel.

Half the time I read these threads I wonder if it’s even worth writing anything here. Based off what other people have already posted. The 221 is super oppressive against USF/Brits (wouldn’t say its op). No one builds the WC51 because the commander and unit are now “trash”. Its pretty hard to lose the 221 to USF early and almost impossible after upgrading to the 223 (its vision +smoke +fog of war vehicle detection + health bonus at vet 3) The UC is a good stall until the 221 – upgrades into the 223 and then its useless. The 223 has a turret and almost takes no damage from small arms. It’s almost safer to go AAHT for USF and AEC for brits against it. Not saying build AAHT and AEC to kill the 223 but more so to protect your army from bleed/wipes. More so brits they have no snares on main lines and the 223 can easily out maneuver your AT gun and decrew it. Soviets have no issue with the 221. Either go T1 with M3 -> into guards inside or penals with PTRS. Or go cons and get a fast quad. This is all 2v2 experience. The unit is very good though. 221 has immense utility, on top of being a good combat supporting unit early game. Also has value throughout the game IE being a recon unit/or a “cache”.

Half the time I read these threads I wonder if it’s even worth writing anything here. Based off what other people have already posted. The 221 is super oppressive against USF/Brits (wouldn’t say its op). No one builds the WC51 because the commander and unit are now “trash”. Its pretty hard to lose the 221 to USF early and almost impossible after upgrading to the 223 (its vision +smoke +fog of war vehicle detection + health bonus at vet 3) The UC is a good stall until the 221 – upgrades into the 223 and then its useless. The 223 has a turret and almost takes no damage from small arms. It’s almost safer to go AAHT for USF and AEC for brits against it. Not saying build AAHT and AEC to kill the 223 but more so to protect your army from bleed/wipes. More so brits they have no snares on main lines and the 223 can easily out maneuver your AT gun and decrew it. Soviets have no issue with the 221. Either go T1 with M3 -> into guards inside or penals with PTRS. Or go cons and get a fast quad. This is all 2v2 experience. The unit is very good though. 221 has immense utility, on top of being a good combat supporting unit early game. Also has value throughout the game IE being a recon unit/or a “cache”.

There is a reason why pretty much every OKW player plays Elite armoured these days in 2v2+ (if they want an even easier game).
Basically it's a free win if you can get to minute 27 for that vet 1 king tiger 72.5 vision with suppression and a possibility for a cheap 30% pen and damage boost.
It wouldn't be possible if raketen weren't easy to keep alive. But with the retreat and camo, you can play aggressively, ignore the medium timing and get the KT even earlier. Hence why a lot of high ranks go for double raketen, especially on maps which are elongated, rather than wide (less avenues of attack). And just A-move them, and if in a pickle, retreat. Something you can't do with other AT guns, unless you want them decrewed.
Soviets have an answer to anything, since pretty much the game was balanced around them. But against brits and USF you have everything.
221 for early harassment which won't bleed MP. Especially deadly when paired with a Spio charge. You either try to force the 221 off, induce 0 bleed, and get wrecked by the incoming spios, or you focus down spios, bleed the enemy a bit, but by that time, the 221 is on you and is bleeding you much more, not to mention it can chase you down. Basically choosing between two evils. In 3v3, from my experience, the 221/3 either gets to vet 4 quickly, or it dies quickly. Most good players know how to keep the 221/3 alive. If you lose the 221, it's mostly your own fault for not paying attention. AAHT is a great tool, albeit unreliable. The main cannon has the tendency to bug out, and it has less range than the MG, so you can't use the visual indicator. Plus, it won't fire the cannon unless it's been static for ~2 seconds (invisible setup time).
221 is not OP, but it's an extremely strong unit, that is hard to kill, and has great utility. Not to mention it's in a great commander, especially for 2v2+

Half the time I read these threads I wonder if it’s even worth writing anything here. Based off what other people have already posted. The 221 is super oppressive against USF/Brits (wouldn’t say its op). No one builds the WC51 because the commander and unit are now “trash”. Its pretty hard to lose the 221 to USF early and almost impossible after upgrading to the 223 (its vision +smoke +fog of war vehicle detection + health bonus at vet 3) The UC is a good stall until the 221 – upgrades into the 223 and then its useless. The 223 has a turret and almost takes no damage from small arms. It’s almost safer to go AAHT for USF and AEC for brits against it. Not saying build AAHT and AEC to kill the 223 but more so to protect your army from bleed/wipes. More so brits they have no snares on main lines and the 223 can easily out maneuver your AT gun and decrew it. Soviets have no issue with the 221. Either go T1 with M3 -> into guards inside or penals with PTRS. Or go cons and get a fast quad. This is all 2v2 experience. The unit is very good though. 221 has immense utility, on top of being a good combat supporting unit early game. Also has value throughout the game IE being a recon unit/or a “cache”.

The majority of this post is accurate but I have to point out somethings.

One should read post in the context they have been posted and in keeping in mind what they responding too.

The 221 has medic kit that are also available to SP so I am not use where it immense utility comes from. Compared to the stock Kubel it has the same sight but kubel can cap, so it comes down to capping over single medic kit.

In sort, one buys the 221 early on for its combat capability and not for its utility as some people have claimed.

As for 223 "cache" mechanism although it is good, it also worse than that Opel/zis tracks since it comes with a 20mp/30fu more cost and a pop 4.

Overall the unit is good and badly designed.

As for the claims that:
"It's supposed to be a utility vehicle not frontline."

"Kubel is also a debatably better combat wise than a 221, since it also meshes extremely well with Sturms."

"the 221 is finally just a utility vehicle that cost 220 /20 fuel and a large part of this cost should be for their utility, not combat capacity."

They are simply false/inaccurate.

Okay. So the kubel can cap and do some small harassment early game. I wasn’t even comparing it to the kubel but since we are doing that. The 223 can heal/ the 223 can be used as a scouting unit/ the 223 is way more durable than a kubel increasing its viability throughout the game. At vet 3 the 223 can eat 2 AT gun shots and live. The 223 can self repair/ The 223 can lay mines ( better than teller mines, aka rigels)/ The 223 can smoke on top of gaining health??? Lol/ The 223 can increase resource gain from any captured point. No other LV in this game has the same amount of utility as the 223. It is by far the best T0 LV in the game. Remember I said UTILITY. Not combat effectiveness. The kubel is no where near a better combat unit than the 221/223. If you honestly believe that. You are out of touch with this game and I’m assuming play this game for comp stomps. The kubel lacks a turret/ the kubel has less armor than the 223. The kubel also has only 50 sight? And the 221/223 gets 60 with vet? The reason people use the 221 is entirely for combat myself included. There is no punishment for driving directly on top of a Section/Riflemen at the timing the 221 comes out. It then quickly becomes a 223 and no longer takes noticeable damage from small arms fire. Forcing the Brit or USF to field an AT gun, or LV to counter a T0 LV lol. Oh, but wait. The 223 has so much sight at this point. That it can spot the AT guns before you can spot the 223 and it can see all vehicles in the fog of war before you get remotely close to it. You should maybe play this game more. Against competent people, and I feel like your view point on some of these topics beyond this one, would dramatically change.

Okay. So the kubel can cap and do some small harassment early game. I wasn’t even comparing it to the kubel but since we are doing that. The 223 can heal/ the 223 can be used as a scouting unit/ the 223 is way more durable than a kubel increasing its viability throughout the game. At vet 3 the 223 can eat 2 AT gun shots and live. The 223 can self repair/ The 223 can lay mines ( better than teller mines, aka rigels)/ The 223 can smoke on top of gaining health??? Lol/ The 223 can increase resource gain from any captured point. No other LV in this game has the same amount of utility as the 223. It is by far the best T0 LV in the game. Remember I said UTILITY.

I am not sure if you have followed what has been posted by whom. So lets try to clarify somethings.

221 and 223 should at least in my opinion be considered different vehicles and this thread is about the 221 since the 223 it not available at minute 3.

221 costs 220/15 and when it comes to utility there is not really much to justify the price compared to the stock kubel. The unit is good because of combat capability and not of it utility. In sort the unit would not be worth building at this price if combat ability was nerfed as suggest by Exsile.

The 223 has a total cost 320/30 and Pop 4. It has plenty of utility but it not a T0 since it need a fully set up truck to become available (neither is 221 since it need sws). It is also the most expensive LV of it class.

Now when it come to resource regeneration it worse than the Opel/blitz because its much more expensive 200vs320/30 to build. In addition in order for one to get back his investment one has to first generate the 30 fu it cost and it more expensive to maintain with POP of 4vs0 for the trucks.


The unit is good and cost efficient and is why I said it badly designed, it is loaded with too many things and priced accordingly. I have even pointed out these things during the test patch.

Imo it would better if 221 and 223 where completely separate units with different roles (in the same command spot). For instance one could make the 221 designed specifically to counter micro lights and sniper and 223 a economic unit and give stats and price accordingly.

Not combat effectiveness. The kubel is no where near a better combat unit than the 221/223. If you honestly believe that. You are out of touch with this game and I’m assuming play this game for comp stomps. The kubel lacks a turret/ the kubel has less armor than the 223. The kubel also has only 50 sight? And the 221/223 gets 60 with vet? The reason people use the 221 is entirely for combat myself included. There is no punishment for driving directly on top of a Section/Riflemen at the timing the 221 comes out. It then quickly becomes a 223 and no longer takes noticeable damage from small arms fire. Forcing the Brit or USF to field an AT gun, or LV to counter a T0 LV lol. Oh, but wait. The 223 has so much sight at this point. That it can spot the AT guns before you can spot the 223 and it can see all vehicles in the fog of war before you get remotely close to it. You should maybe play this game more. Against competent people, and I feel like your view point on some of these topics beyond this one, would dramatically change.

I have never claimed that kubel is better in combat than 221/223 on the contrary I responded to claims like these

...
Kubel is also a debatably better combat wise than a 221, since it also meshes extremely well with Sturms.

....
Saying that the Kubel MG34 has inferior DPS to the MG42 on the 221 shows that you don't actually play this game, especially since it has the same effective DPS as a Ober squad without ever having to get in close range unlike the 221.By the time a 221 comes out, you can tech up shortly afterwards Lieu with handheld AT.

There is no such answer for USF if a Kubel is the first thing they see.

and I have clearly said that 221/223 is better than kubel. In sort your comments should be addressed to massaderek and not me.

Now if you want continue this debate I suggest you read what I have actually posted (I have not claim 223 does not have utility nor that kubel is better 221/223 in combat) and feel free to explain if you disagree with something I have actually posted.

(edited)

221 and 223 are not different units, lmao. 223 is an upgraded 221. The situation would be different with the possibility of building a 223 separately.

And no, the dozer Sherman and the regular Sherman do not count, since the first is a doctrinal upgrade with a clear tradeoff.

On the topic: 221 is strong, especially vs UKF. I don't think it is OP tho.

221 and 223 are not different units, lmao. 223 is an upgraded 221. The situation would be different with the possibility of building a 223 separately.

And no, the dozer Sherman and the regular Sherman do not count, since the first is a doctrinal upgrade with a clear tradeoff.

On the topic: 221 is strong, especially vs UKF. I don't think it is OP tho.

Is not really important in this thread if 221 and 223 are different unit or not, for clarity reason though one should clarify if his talking about the 221 or the 223.

What is important in the this tread is if the 221 that is available at minute 3 (and not 223 that is not) has enough utility compared to the kubel to cost 10mp and 15 fuel more.

Imo it does not so one can not just nerf is combat capability as suggest by exile because the unit will not be used.

(edited)

What is important in the this tread is if the 221 that is available at minute 3 (and not 223 that is not) has enough utility compared to the kubel to cost 10mp and 15 fuel more.

This is probably your best argument here. However, if you look at the stats and how you actually play with the 221 directly following its entry onto the field, the answer is pretty clearly: "yes". The unit is much more impactful at ranges closer than 30 than the kubelwagen is. Which synergizes with the fact that it has more health than the kubel does plus a rotating turret.

The 223 is also worthwhile even considering the extra cost in that it's the only OKW unit that can pay itself off. Granted this is over the course of 2-3 minutes. It's basically a gambit saying: "I will bully you in the early game, remain annoying a short while later, and then I'll recoup all the fuel I paid to do that in the first place, although my other light vehicles will come out slower."

This is probably your best argument here. However, if you look at the stats and how you actually play with the 221 directly following its entry onto the field, the answer is pretty clearly: "yes". The unit is much more impactful at ranges closer than 30 than the kubelwagen is. Which synergizes with the fact that it has more health than the kubel does plus a rotating turret.

The 223 is also worthwhile even considering the extra cost in that it's the only OKW unit that can pay itself off. Granted this is over the course of 2-3 minutes. It's basically a gambit saying: "I will bully you in the early game, remain annoying a short while later, and then I'll recoup all the fuel I paid to do that in the first place, although my other light vehicles will come out slower."

You are simply missing the point.

It has been argued that combat stat of the 221 should be lowered since it has more than enough utility. It doesn't if it not upgraded, without its superior combat capability it would not be worth building over the kubel at that price.

Currently the 221 is worth building early because of its combat capability and not of its utility, cripple its combat capability and it will not.

221 is good in both combat and utily. Vipper.

You are simply missing the point.

Vipper. There wasn't any point to miss. You were asking a question and I answered it.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the 221 as it is. Which, if I understand you correctly, is something that we agree on.

221 is good in both combat and utily. Vipper.

Did I claim that 221 was bad in combat or utility?

Did I claim that 221 was bad in combat or utility?

Yes you are,

Yes you are,

No I have not.

Please provide a quote where I claim that 221 is bad in combat or utility instead of making up staff.

221 costs 220/15 and when it comes to utility there is not really much to justify the price compared to the stock kubel. The unit is good because of combat capability and not of it utility.

of couse, You will say 221-223 is 2 different unit to deny your own words.
And I say "221 is good for BOTH UNITY AND COMBAT ".

And I dont care about rank 1000+ mindset, too

of couse, You will say 221-223 is 2 different unit to deny your own words.
And I say "221 is good for BOTH UNITY AND COMBAT ".

And I dont care about rank 1000+ mindset, too

This is what I have posted:

...
The unit is good and cost efficient...

And I am glad to see that you agree with me.

In sort you have failed to provide any quote of me saying the 221 is bad and you are making this thing up.

I am not going to follow you down this rabbit hole since you are making things up in order to discredit me.