Testing various SMG units

This is not a balance thread, just testing various SMG units on test map at point blank. I originally got the itch a month or two ago, I was using PPSh Airborne and OKW went IR STG as I kept catching him off guard. Needless to say PPSH got shutdown but I switched to LMG so no big deal. I posted a recent game with 2 scout cars and AssG, OKW this time made IRSTG to counter but it didn't work out as well so I did some testing just to check.

IR STG beat Penal PPSh/Airborne at Vet0, Airborne when both VET3, but loses to Penals with both VET3.
As Airborne need camo to get bonus in real situation the IR detection would shut that down.

AssG/Shocks mop the floor with them.

For the hell of It I tested Shocks vs AssG, at vet0 Shocks win but at VET3 AssG pull the upset more often then not which caught me by surprise. Shocks dominate PPSH Penals, but PPSH Penals can beat AssG when both VET3.

SHOCKS stomp PARAS and Rangers

ASSG lose to Paras and Rangers at vet0, Paras with vet, but goes either way vet3 Rangers.

Edit: None of this testing was scientific in any way shape or form was just testing for fun.

Thoughts:
Even though IR Obers don't really win anything close range their mid-range performance along with ability to negate cover makes them a pretty good choice as real world situations will most likely have at least one squad closing in on the other.

Shocks are beast from the get go, not that was a surprise.

PPSH Penals put out a shit load of damage, they give shocks a run for their money but their inability to get close and clunky upgrade path makes it a nonstarter for most.

Airborne Guards are the weakest if looking from a base damage/durability point of view. However, cloak and smoke can give them the edge although their cloak is the worst. The biggest surprise was even after the PPSH upgrade I noticed that I could give them 2 more weapons. It may never happen but a double LMG cloaked Airborne could be cool.

AssGuards are fairly meh at VET0, but AT Vet3 they gave everything a run for their money except PARAs as a lot of matches had a slim win for AssG or massive win in favor of Paras.

Paras seemed to be fairly good against everything short of Shocks, not good enough with test mods to get a good test with Tactical Advance.

Rangers disappointed me the most, while they did decent I sort of expected them to dominate a bit more since they start off with good Rec Acc, however Soviet VET keeps it closer than it probably should be.

I didn't test Falls too much as they really need their camo to get best performance. They really should not be used outside of cover.

Imo AssGuards are underrated. AssNades and OK damage distribution make this unit really good. They do need some finesse in operating compared to shox, but the wipe potential is very high. Kind of why I loved using them in 1v1. The guy sleeps for 3 seconds and his squad is gone. Managed to flank an HMG? Reappropriation of the HMG is incoming. The guy has his troops behind the cover that you want to take? How about eating a swarm of nades and GTFO from that cover xD

Also, the Thompson is an assault rifle/SMG hybrid. High damage up close and decent damage mid-range.

Also, the Thompson is an assault rifle/SMG hybrid. High damage up close and decent damage mid-range.

Yea, I just did the test at close range as I would expect the IR Obers to win at mid range as they are a beefed up PG STG44 which is a true AR where the Thompsons are a SMG with decent better mid range compared to the others.

Looking at the Serelia graphs, IR STG and PPSH are the best on the move. They both keep around 60% or better on the move. Stens/Thompsons/MP44/PG STG seem to do about 55% or less on the move so there chase potential seems to be a lot less.

Yea, I just did the test at close range as I would expect the IR Obers to win at mid range as they are a beefed up PG STG44 which is a true AR where the Thompsons are a SMG with decent better mid range compared to the others.

Looking at the Serelia graphs, IR STG and PPSH are the best on the move. They both keep around 60% or better on the move. Stens/Thompsons/MP44/PG STG seem to do about 55% or less on the move so there chase potential seems to be a lot less.

Thompson have good DPS as far as range 20 so that is not very accurate and Ober get 2 IR STG and 2 K98...

Imo AssGuards are underrated. AssNades and OK damage distribution make this unit really good.

Plus DatAss

This is not a balance thread, just testing various SMG units on test map at point blank. I originally got the itch a month or two ago, I was using PPSh Airborne and OKW went IR STG as I kept catching him off guard. Needless to say PPSH got shutdown but I switched to LMG so no big deal. I posted a recent game with 2 scout cars and AssG, OKW this time made IRSTG to counter but it didn't work out as well so I did some testing just to check.

IR STG beat Penal PPSh/Airborne at Vet0, Airborne when both VET3, but loses to Penals with both VET3.
As Airborne need camo to get bonus in real situation the IR detection would shut that down.

AssG/Shocks mop the floor with them.

For the hell of It I tested Shocks vs AssG, at vet0 Shocks win but at VET3 AssG pull the upset more often then not which caught me by surprise. Shocks dominate PPSH Penals, but PPSH Penals can beat AssG when both VET3.

SHOCKS stomp PARAS and Rangers

ASSG lose to Paras and Rangers at vet0, Paras with vet, but goes either way vet3 Rangers.

Edit: None of this testing was scientific in any way shape or form was just testing for fun.

Thoughts:
Even though IR Obers don't really win anything close range their mid-range performance along with ability to negate cover makes them a pretty good choice as real world situations will most likely have at least one squad closing in on the other.

Shocks are beast from the get go, not that was a surprise.

PPSH Penals put out a shit load of damage, they give shocks a run for their money but their inability to get close and clunky upgrade path makes it a nonstarter for most.

Airborne Guards are the weakest if looking from a base damage/durability point of view. However, cloak and smoke can give them the edge although their cloak is the worst. The biggest surprise was even after the PPSH upgrade I noticed that I could give them 2 more weapons. It may never happen but a double LMG cloaked Airborne could be cool.

AssGuards are fairly meh at VET0, but AT Vet3 they gave everything a run for their money except PARAs as a lot of matches had a slim win for AssG or massive win in favor of Paras.

Paras seemed to be fairly good against everything short of Shocks, not good enough with test mods to get a good test with Tactical Advance.

Rangers disappointed me the most, while they did decent I sort of expected them to dominate a bit more since they start off with good Rec Acc, however Soviet VET keeps it closer than it probably should be.

I didn't test Falls too much as they really need their camo to get best performance. They really should not be used outside of cover.

you forget StormStrooper MP40 and Volk MP40, Ass Rifle/Tommy and Pastisan PPsH
Still, Ranger SMG based on their pure raw power NOT tactical unit like Para, Stormstrooper, osber SMG...v..v.

Still, Ranger would be nice if they can plain demo, booty trap or just simply flare mine.

Nice one Rumartinez.

I'm a fan of IR-STG's but i'm not sure I really get the best out of them when i use them. I suppose their niche is that they are pretty much the one really strong medium/close range unit in the OKW arsenal that can stop elite allied SMG units from closing the distance and forcing you to back up/retreat.

The trade off is that it just feels way, way easier to give the Obers their usual LMG and vet them up at long range while bleeding enemy units from a relatively safe distance....

Surprised by the relatively weak performance of rangers. Maybe that's why their bazooka's are so good, as some small form of compensation.

you forget StormStrooper MP40 and Volk MP40, Ass Rifle/Tommy and Pastisan PPsH
Still, Ranger SMG based on their pure raw power NOT tactical unit like Para, Stormstrooper, osber SMG...v..v.

I didn't forget them I was mainly looking at the elite units, really started as AssG, Airborne and IR Obers and the others joined in for the hell of it. What I said about Falls applies to the Partisan and Storm, you need to test them using cloak and I am not good enough with testing to not effect the performance of the cloak. With Storms you also need to use Tactical Advance to get maximum performance so a lot for a noob like me to get right. Without cloak/ability I would expect them to lose every fight due to sheer EHP of the competition.

Thompson have good DPS as far as range 20 so that is not very accurate and Ober get 2 IR STG and 2 K98...

You are right about Thompsons, it comes down to in game situation. PPSH/Thompsons do about the same damage on the move close range however with 6 PPSH they do about 72 damage close(up to range 10) with a drop to 24 at 15 range. Paras would do 65.4 DPS at range 4, 61.6 at range 10 but hold on fairly well at range 15 for about 35 DPS. So if you can get a bit of body blocking going PPSH are better, no blocking Thompsons.

One thing I find interesting is Shocks have better base damage with VET vs Penals in serelia but on the move Penals do more damage. So one of the numbers is wrong as Penals should do equal or more damage standing still due to Vet ACC which would make their on the move damage being higher makes sense.

Penals would do 78 DPS until 10 range and 30 DPS at 15 range, which would match them up significantly better vs Paras.

At point blank Obers do 57 DPS, range 8 55.45, range 15 ~ 32 DPS and range 20 24.4 DPS and 15.93 at range 30 which is where all other SMG have fallen off. (Paras do 20.6 DPS at range 20, 6.47 range 30 mostly due to carbines)

All numbers above where using VET3.

Non VET
Shocks close-50.1 DPS range-15 17 DPS
Paras range-4 51.3 DPS range-10 48 DPS range-15 27.6 range-20 15.89 range-30 4.95
Obers range-0 39.85 range-8 38.6 range-15 21.9 range-20 16.66 range-30 10.67

Obers are pretty much the best chasers despite only having 2 IR STGs, it is worth chasing even almost to max range. Paras start off as stronger chasers than Shocks which makes sense as they cost muni and come later but Shocks make up a lot of the difference with superior VET so like I said a little earlier it really comes down to the in game situation.

..
One thing I find interesting is Shocks have better base damage with VET vs Penals in serelia but on the move Penals do more damage. So one of the numbers is wrong as Penals should do equal or more damage standing still due to Vet ACC which would make their on the move damage being higher makes sense.
...

Not necessarily since accuracy is capped at 1 and it probable that once vetted Penals get higher accuracy than 1 at close range that is "wasted".

Yea, I just did the test at close range as I would expect the IR Obers to win at mid range as they are a beefed up PG STG44 which is a true AR where the Thompsons are a SMG with decent better mid range compared to the others.

Looking at the Serelia graphs, IR STG and PPSH are the best on the move. They both keep around 60% or better on the move. Stens/Thompsons/MP44/PG STG seem to do about 55% or less on the move so there chase potential seems to be a lot less.

It's less about DPS retention on the move, but about the absolute DPS on mid-long range in my opinion. PPSh and SMGs in general are great on short range, but unless you can body block the enemy or cut into the retreat path, they are not good at wiping. Especially in frontal assaults, where the enemy might retreat straight to the back once you're in optimum range, there is not much they can do because the enemy will exit the most dangerous zone instantly.

PGren STGs have decent mid-far DPS on the move, they can chase really well. Thompsons are okay until mid ranges. These types of weapons allow better for your opponent to misjudge the damage you can do and retreat late, or for a lucky snipe at max range.

Thompson have good DPS as far as range 20 so that is not very accurate and Ober get 2 IR STG and 2 K98...

IR Obers have great DPS on the move for chasing, especially considering that afaik their modifier against retreating squads is still better than usual. The damage concentration also helps in that role.

...
IR Obers have great DPS on the move for chasing, especially considering that afaik their modifier against retreating squads is still better than usual. The damage concentration also helps in that role.

Second point had more to do with the fact that one should be looking at total DPS of the squad from all weapon and not just one type of weapons or only one of its properties, (IR STG) in this case.

Actually exaggerating about STG Ober performance talking just about IR STG used to be quite common.

It's less about DPS retention on the move, but about the absolute DPS on mid-long range in my opinion. PPSh and SMGs in general are great on short range, but unless you can body block the enemy or cut into the retreat path, they are not good at wiping. Especially in frontal assaults, where the enemy might retreat straight to the back once you're in optimum range, there is not much they can do because the enemy will exit the most dangerous zone instantly.

Yea you and Vipper are right about that. However do to map design and most users instantly retreating once SMG users get close I have tried really hard to change my approach. Frontally assaulting anything leads to most of the complaints we have as SMG units wont really pay off. I try to attack from the side or behind so I can attempt to get into the retreat path as much as possible which probably led me to confirmation bias of PPSH being better than Thompsons. (Just remembered that I am also comparing them to AssG which only have 3 Thompsons)

Not necessarily since accuracy is capped at 1 and it probable that once vetted Penals get higher accuracy than 1 at close range that is "wasted".

But wouldn't that mean they both get a stationary damage of 16.863? Yet, serelia has Penals listed at 16.613 so is the extra accuracy having a negative effect? The increased moving DPS would make sense as the moving acc nerf wouldn't effect them as much as they have a higher value to start with.

Second point had more to do with the fact that one should be looking at total DPS of the squad from all weapon and not just one type of weapons or only one of its properties, (IR STG) in this case.

Actually exaggerating about STG Ober performance talking just about IR STG used to be quite common.

Although he talked about the IR STG, what rumartinez said is true though for the whole IR Ober squad. IR Obers have about 70% moving DPS in close range and 63% far, while their weapon distribution helps them to retain DPS better than some of the other squads that have been in this comparison.

But wouldn't that mean they both get a stationary damage of 16.863? Yet, serelia has Penals listed at 16.613 so is the extra accuracy having a negative effect? The increased moving DPS would make sense as the moving acc nerf wouldn't effect them as much as they have a higher value to start with.

Don't take serealia DPS at face value. It is often wrong and has not been updated in ages. Penals received a veterancy change, losing accuracy and gaining RA. I don't know if that is already incorporated in the site. The other difference is a small cool down veterancy bonus between Shocks and Penals.

Values for highly accurate weapons and vetted squads are fairly artificial anyway due to the aforementioned accuracy cap. E.g. the PPSh has a close range accuracy of 0.8. Combine that with the +40% accuracy modifier of Shock troops and you're technically at 1.12. This value will be capped at 1, meaning the calculated DPS gain will only be 25% instead of the promised 40%. But that's not what you will see in game. Your vet3 Shock will likely fight a vet3 Volks or something. The lower RA of the targeted squad will usually push the overall accuracy below 1 (to 1.12x0.77 = 0.86 in our example), which will not be capped and mean that the veterancy accuracy bonuses have the effect that they are intended to have.
Against a newly build Volksgrenadier, the calculated value would be true, but when comparing vetted units, they might not reflect the game properly.

Although he talked about the IR STG, what rumartinez said is true though for the whole IR Ober squad. IR Obers have about 70% moving DPS in close range and 63% far, while their weapon distribution helps them to retain DPS better than some of the other squads that have been in this comparison.

I never claimed that STG Ober do not have good DPS on the move.

...The lower RA of the targeted squad will usually push the overall accuracy below 1 (to 1.12x0.77 = 0.86 in our example), which will not be capped and mean that the veterancy accuracy bonuses have the effect that they are intended to have.
..

I am not sure when or how the accuracy cap applies since I am under the impression that I have seen misses even when there should not be one.

I never claimed that STG Ober do not have good DPS on the move.

You mentioning the K98s in response to him saying that IR STG has very good moving DPS creates the impression that the whole IR Ober squad does not have good moving DPS because of those two K98s. But they do, that's why I corrected it.

I am not sure when or how the accuracy cap applies since I am under the impression that I have seen misses even when there should not be one.

I am very sure it applies after the RA modification. I once tested a different approach to snipers by giving them >1 accuracy, but without the instant kill. On open field, they always hit the target, but once the target was in cover, they missed from time to time. Although I have the feeling that I specifically tested veterancy RA, I am not 100% that I really did. Cover RA is surely taken into account, so I assume model RA is as well.

Many of those coin flips however might not be as determined by chance as it should be, but also by netcode. At least if we assume that what Rosbone says is true, which it might very well be. For infantry fights, there's basically no chance of really determining that unless someone is willing to really dump a couple of hours into that issue.

You mentioning the K98s in response to him saying that IR STG has very good moving DPS creates the impression that the whole IR Ober squad does not have good moving DPS because of those two K98s. But they do, that's why I corrected it.


I am very sure it applies after the RA modification. I once tested a different approach to snipers by giving them >1 accuracy, but without the instant kill. On open field, they always hit the target, but once the target was in cover, they missed from time to time. Although I have the feeling that I specifically tested veterancy RA, I am not 100% that I really did. Cover RA is surely taken into account, so I assume model RA is as well.

Many of those coin flips however might not be as determined by chance as it should be, but also by netcode. At least if we assume that what Rosbone says is true, which it might very well be. For infantry fights, there's basically no chance of really determining that unless someone is willing to really dump a couple of hours into that issue.

Point was that one should be looking at total squad DPS and not individual properties, like:

"They both keep around 60% or better on the move. Stens/Thompsons/MP44/PG STG seem to do about 55% or less on the move so there chase potential seems to be a lot less."


Cover modifiers are properties of the weapon itself and not of the targets or users of the weapon so the mechanisms might be different.