Jackson wind up - Wind down

Again:
The wind up time matters for 3 meters. The distance you have to spot further than other Allied factions is pretty much exactly 3 meters, and now consider this because this is important: against a rushing enemy at top speed. 43/53 meters instead of 40/50. Then the shot of a Jackson will hit around the same point as a shot of the SU85/Firefly/basically any other tank.
That's literally what you're complaining about. Not nothing, but also not huge.

What you are describing as a "slugfest" is being ambushed by the opponent at sub 40 range. You're supposed to lose. If you properly spot for your Jackson up to range 43, you'll not have this issue.

Again, it's not nothing, but also not a huge deal. All I am asking is how you justify how this makes the Jackson really suffer given all it's advantages, especially the high mobility to keep distance.

That's pretty much non info. Panther won't fight Elefant anyway and Jackson bounces even in the video. But that's not the point of it. The point is the time delay.

True, there is definitely a point to be made. However, there is no use in arguing about technical what if scenarios for COH2. If Jackson vs Panther comes up, it will take a lot more than a first hit to declare a winner. Also, if the player on either sides has half a brain and sees he will get wreckt, he will pull back in a timely fashion, perhaps bringing a supporting infantry unit to snare the enemy. And that's just one scenario of many. How about protecting your Panther with 2 Pak40s? Does first hit timing really matter? Or the inverse scenario, 1 Jackson 2 ATGs vs 1 Panther. Will it really matter that Jackson will fire second?

COH2 is not a game about singled out events, but a general and more empirological picture.

Again:
The wind up time matters for 3 meters. The distance you have to spot further than other Allied factions is pretty much exactly 3 meters, and now consider this because this is important: against a rushing enemy at top speed. 43/53 meters instead of 40/50. Then the shot of a Jackson will hit around the same point as a shot of the SU85/Firefly/basically any other tank.
That's literally what you're complaining about. Not nothing, but also not huge.

Not necessarily, you're stuck with one from many scenarios. There are quantity of map where you need to take risk and close the distance with the Jackson to simply do something, maps where you'll never be able to keep the distance because shot blockers don't allow it, and last but not least you're also facing JTG and Elef which fire faster their opening shot at long range.

Speed and mobility is irrelevant here, the Jackson isn't significantly faster than other tank to make this stat much relevant, and Axis tank get blitz at vet1 and various doctrinal options to take on the Jackson range and mobility.

At the end your answer is that it doesn't matter, well it does as per the video I posted and the nature of the game in which shooting first gives you an edge, even more when your opponent has a guaranteed penetration unlike you.
Now we can argue about skill so it doesn't happen if you do it well but skill would be a more valid argument if in reality who's played better shot first and not the game deciding that yeah maybe you played better but not enough to shot first because wind up for you only.

Not necessarily, you're stuck with one from many scenarios. There are quantity of map where you need to take risk and close the distance with the Jackson to simply do something, maps where you'll never be able to keep the distance because shot blockers don't allow it, and last but not least you're also facing JTG and Elef which fire faster their opening shot at long range.

Speed and mobility is irrelevant here, the Jackson isn't significantly faster than other tank to make this stat much relevant, and Axis tank get blitz at vet1 and various doctrinal options to take on the Jackson range and mobility.

At the end your answer is that it doesn't matter, well it does as per the video I posted and the nature of the game in which shooting first gives you an edge, even more when your opponent has a guaranteed penetration unlike you.
Now we can argue about skill so it doesn't happen if you do it well but skill would be a more valid argument if in reality who's played better shot first and not the game deciding that yeah maybe you played better but not enough to shot first because wind up for you only.

Mobility matters a lot. The Jackson can withdraw from a fight much more easily than slower vehicles. It can't if Axis absolutely force it, but the Jackson has a decent area it can cover, even if ambushed. This makes it easier to retreat to supporting units and thereby increase the risk for the diving Axis tank. If you want to argue that a half second dela for the shot matters a lot in many scenarios, you can't seriously argue that high mobility suddenly unimportant.

Performance against JT and Ele is also unimportant. With any Allied TD, you eat a shot, fire one back if you can and have to leave. The second shot of the Ele/JT comes late enough to stay half a second longer. I mean, you're not being ambushed by one at close range, so you probably need to bridge only 10 meters before being out of range if your Jackson has been somewhat properly positioned. The point that you're refering to THE two top tier doctrinal TDs to partially support your argument shows what I have been saying in the first place: it's not a big deal.

Now, to repeat myself:
This is not a performance issue that has recently come up or was hard to spot. This is an issue literally every player can see every game a Jackson is bought. It has very likely already priced into the overall cost and performance of the Jackson. The Jackson is good generally and good for the price even with it. It is a property of the Jackson like the slow ROF is a property of the Firefly. If you're aware of this specialty, great. Place your Jackson slightly more conservatively according to the dangerous situations you refer to above, and you'll get even more out of it than other players. If you want to buff the Jackson in some way to compensate the slower alpha shot, something else has to give.

Mobility matters a lot. The Jackson can withdraw from a fight much more easily than slower vehicles. It can't if Axis absolutely force it, but the Jackson has a decent area it can cover, even if ambushed. This makes it easier to retreat to supporting units and thereby increase the risk for the diving Axis tank. If you want to argue that a half second dela for the shot matters a lot in many scenarios, you can't seriously argue that high mobility suddenly unimportant.

Performance against JT and Ele is also unimportant. With any Allied TD, you eat a shot, fire one back if you can and have to leave. The second shot of the Ele/JT comes late enough to stay half a second longer. I mean, you're not being ambushed by one at close range, so you probably need to bridge only 10 meters before being out of range if your Jackson has been somewhat properly positioned. The point that you're refering to THE two top tier doctrinal TDs to partially support your argument shows what I have been saying in the first place: it's not a big deal.

Now, to repeat myself:
This is not a performance issue that has recently come up or was hard to spot. This is an issue literally every player can see every game a Jackson is bought. It has very likely already priced into the overall cost and performance of the Jackson. The Jackson is good generally and good for the price even with it. It is a property of the Jackson like the slow ROF is a property of the Firefly. If you're aware of this specialty, great. Place your Jackson slightly more conservatively according to the dangerous situations you refer to above, and you'll get even more out of it than other players. If you want to buff the Jackson in some way to compensate the slower alpha shot, something else has to give.

Jackson's mobility matters in a way because there literally nothing able to cover the Jackson. You're reverting the reality, Jackson's stat aren't the cause but the consequence of serious gaps in USF roaster. If its mobility could have been reduced it would have been done 1 million times by the modding team the same way they reduced its armor to the bare minimum because why not.

From that point onward you can't compare mobility which is a stop gap covering the rest of USF late game issues and Wind up that's here only for nothing.
If wind up is not so important, then why only the Jackson and M10 have them? every tank has the stat available, you just need to add the same value for all of them and suddenly there isn't anymore one tank that fire sometime due to RNG or whatever 2 seconds after the others.

Jackson's mobility matters in a way because there literally nothing able to cover the Jackson. You're reverting the reality, Jackson's stat aren't the cause but the consequence of serious gaps in USF roaster. If its mobility could have been reduced it would have been done 1 million times by the modding team the same way they reduced its armor to the bare minimum because why not.

So what is the point?
If the balance team deemed the Jacksons alpha strike capabilities as too little, they would have buffed it 1 million times as well?
Jacksons mobility is very high, it can run away if ambushed, it can run to safety if ambushed. If not, it was out of position. This works the same way for every other tank.

The situations you talk about happen, but are also not the stuff that happens every second time. And in even fewer cases, this half second made an actual difference.

From that point onward you can't compare mobility which is a stop gap covering the rest of USF late game issues and Wind up that's here only for nothing.

Exactly that's what I am talking about.
Jackson has already been balanced towards its faction and its own performance. Improve it, and it needs to pay somewhere else.
Why do you assume that the Jackson has been balanced in all its strengths to its faction and environment, but suddenly this wind up oddity that has been there in plain sight since the very beginning has not?
It is indeed shitty that this small delay is not directly communicated to the player. But neither are veterancy bonusses, mobility and penetration for example, and in contrast to the delay that even the dude starting CoH2 for the first time could notice, they are also not directly visible in game. Yet you argue that all those more invisible and sometimes even harder to grasp stats have been taken into account so that the Jackson can make up holes in the USF roster, but wind up has been forgotten.

If wind up is not so important, then why only the Jackson and M10 have them? every tank has the stat available, you just need to add the same value for all of them and suddenly there isn't anymore one tank that fire sometime due to RNG or whatever 2 seconds after the others.

You got the answers what those stats do in literally the first couple of posts in this thread.

The only complaint I'd have for any TD is that su-85 & Jagdpanzer having too log RA penalty. They have penalty of a LV, not a tank.

Even after I close the gap with 1~2 hit to range 60 from 35, there is a high chance of a shot missing due to this.

So what is the point?
If the balance team deemed the Jacksons alpha strike capabilities as too little, they would have buffed it 1 million times as well?
Jacksons mobility is very high, it can run away if ambushed, it can run to safety if ambushed. If not, it was out of position. This works the same way for every other tank.

The situations you talk about happen, but are also not the stuff that happens every second time. And in even fewer cases, this half second made an actual difference.


Exactly that's what I am talking about.
Jackson has already been balanced towards its faction and its own performance. Improve it, and it needs to pay somewhere else.
Why do you assume that the Jackson has been balanced in all its strengths to its faction and environment, but suddenly this wind up oddity that has been there in plain sight since the very beginning has not?
It is indeed shitty that this small delay is not directly communicated to the player. But neither are veterancy bonusses, mobility and penetration for example, and in contrast to the delay that even the dude starting CoH2 for the first time could notice, they are also not directly visible in game. Yet you argue that all those more invisible and sometimes even harder to grasp stats have been taken into account so that the Jackson can make up holes in the USF roster, but wind up has been forgotten.


You got the answers what those stats do in literally the first couple of posts in this thread.

Oh yeah because we can't nerf Jackson as much as we want let's make it unreliable. That's a way to balance it I guess. And it participate to the story that USF need to be played perfectly every game to win.

Oh yeah because we can't nerf Jackson as much as we want let's make it unreliable. That's a way to balance it I guess. And it participate to the story that USF need to be played perfectly every game to win.

You are aware that 1vs1 winrates of USF in the latest patch are:

USF vs OKW 53% vs 47%
USF vs Ostheer 54% vs 46%

so stat do not support your narrative?

Oh yeah because we can't nerf Jackson as much as we want let's make it unreliable. That's a way to balance it I guess.

I've asked you multiple times now to explain how the Jackson becomes overly weak, how this delay has not been taken into account yet and to make show that this is indeed a bigger issue.
I've tried to put it into context and quantify the problem at least to the (little) extend that it is possible. You've not answered any of those core questions.
I'll leave it at that, I've made my points. You are absolutely free to disagree, but unless there is a totally new point to be made, there is not much more to say from my side. Whoever reads this can decide on their own whose argumentation they find more convincing.

And it participate to the story that USF need to be played perfectly every game to win.

Couple of posts you implied I wanted to use a strawman argument and now pull off this one.

Jackson is a quite balanced tank, overall. The wind up, wind down don't matter much. Even in the video, sure the Panther fires it's first shot faster, but <1 second... not really important. And jacksons definitely don't penetrate everything at all times. Heck, I've once ambushed a lone elefant with a Pershing on one side and a Jackson up front, and it still managed to get away. Jackson bounced, if I remember correctly, 3/4 shots. I mean, the penetration on the jackson, at ranges you should be using it, is 220. P4J is 234 (6% chance of a bounce, not much, RNG can be tricky, and I have had Jackson bounce on the P4J, but seldom).
So technically, even stock medium tanks can deflect the Jackson, albeit seldom.

The main problem, in my opinion is that the super heavy tanks fire too fast once vetted up.
Elefant at vet3 fires every 4.5 seconds, same as the Jagdtiger (faster than the Jackson at vet3).
In teamgames, where bringing down such heavy beasts is not easy. You have the enemy himself to deal with, and their supporting troops, plus the ally which will definitely be guarding it, not to mention backwards schwerers that deny infantry, so you need to coordinate the sh*t out of it to take it down, whilst using the elefant is pretty straightforward in most 3v3+ maps. Park it in the lane and forget about it. Even if it's being dived, you have ample time to react given how it has 1000+ HP and 400+ armour. If it were up to me, I'd increase the ROF by 1 second on both ele and jagd and I'd make all super heavies (Jagd, Ele, ISU152, Sturm, KT) crippled on any tank snare. If you managed to snare any of the super heavies, they would always get the engine destroyed critical, and grind to a halt (speed = 0.1). It would even be realistic as those tanks were extremely unreliable in real life since motor mechanics was not developed enough to fit such heavy beasts (heck, even Panthers and Tigers had a fuc*ton of mechanical problems, and were lighter).
Jackson is more than fine in 1v1s, and in teamgames, you usually need 2 of them to contest the axis, especially in super lane-y maps where KT can put on spearhead mode without any drawbacks (eg Redball which has no flanking routes, so the turret rotation 45deg lock is inconsequential). Heck, spearhead suppresses infantry in 360 better than an MG42, given how it's firing from an elevated position at all times (tested, MGs suppress better if in elevated positions against yellow and green cover, eg in buildings or KT, given how projectiles are 3D vectors in this game)

I've asked you multiple times now to explain how the Jackson becomes overly weak, how this delay has not been taken into account yet and to make show that this is indeed a bigger issue.
I've tried to put it into context and quantify the problem at least to the (little) extend that it is possible. You've not answered any of those core questions.
I'll leave it at that, I've made my points. You are absolutely free to disagree, but unless there is a totally new point to be made, there is not much more to say from my side. Whoever reads this can decide on their own whose argumentation they find more convincing.


Couple of posts you implied I wanted to use a strawman argument and now pull off this one.

I never said that was making the Jackson overly weak, I said it makes it never fire first on even in time when tanks are at range. Now you tell me its part of its design, well that your opinion and I'm not agreeing with because this delay implies much more micro management and situation awareness for the player using it than for his opponent.

And yes, those gimmicks that force the player to do more micro to reach the same outcome than with other tanks is the reason why we politely say USF needs to be played perfectly to shine.

At player level this delay is an issue because the player has to wait 1 second more to asses if he is at firing range or not. 1 second is a lot to wait to take decision, during that time the player may be to quick and consider that he is not at range and move his Jackson closer.
- If the Jackson was indeed at range, now he is firing on the move instead of being still stand.
- If he moves and his opponent move also in his direction he is simply letting him close the distance faster and now he also need to stop and move backward losing a lot of time.

All of this because of a 1 second delay where the Jackson does absolutely nothing and let you beleive it is still out of combat. And that's not just on me, I've seen and analysed many replays, everybody does that with the Jackson, wrong assessement based on a stupid unique gimmick feature that in reality fuck the player.

.... Heck, spearhead suppresses infantry in 360 better than an MG42, given how it's firing from an elevated position at all times (tested, MGs suppress better if in elevated positions against yellow and green cover, eg in buildings or KT, given how projectiles are 3D vectors in this game)

Small arm fire does not have projectiles.

If you have any evidence that indicate that HMG suppers better "at all times" if firing from elevated position to cover feel free to provide it.

Cover some times does not seem to work for certain weapons if there big elevation difference at a sort distance but that is different from what you are claiming.

Small arm fire does not have projectiles (unless you are counting PTRS) and large caliber weapon have projectiles (aceept from the older " HEAT" and 17p) so there are different mechanics behind "projectiles"