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Make Multiplayer COH3 free to play to save the franchise.

4 Mar 2022, 12:57 PM
#1
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

This must come as a shock to you, but let's make a simple thought.

Take for example very big and succesful games in the strategy genre: Dota2, LOL, StarCraft2, Heroes of the Storm, Smite and dozens of smaller (although bigger than COH2's playerbase) titles.

The people designing them spent millions of dollars in the creation and maintenance of the titles, however they released them for free. Why was that do you think?

  • Few people ever pay 60$ for a game and play it for more than say 16 months. So it is unreasonable to expect COH3 Multiplayer to keep going even if it's perfect because nobody is ever satisfied with what they bought.
  • The lootcrate business model, the one where you have a trading environment and basically pay for a chance to look better, seems to be way more profitable than the traditional pay to play one. Especially in this market.
  • Keeping the game free makes you have a lot more players dropping in on the lower ranks, and thereby you increase the chance of fair matches and also the chance that the game will be better overall.
  • Also adding seasons and better ranks makes the game more addicting and thus even free players will buy in.
  • Bigger playerbase also makes every single matching algorithm work better and more efficiently.


So do we, as a community dedicated to COH, really and unironically think that COH3 Multiplayer will be better even though it will never actually have a chance of even competing with the rest of the saturated strategy market?

And just FYI: Age of Empires IV, a brand new title destined to "revive" RTS also released by Relic, right now has about the same player numbers as COH2 even though it released about 6 months ago (proof, previous proof but with better scale).

I just want COH to survive. It's not 2006 anymore guys.
5 Mar 2022, 18:04 PM
#2
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1379

Agree. It's just hard to pitch that game model to corporate overlords I'm sure.
5 Mar 2022, 18:42 PM
#3
avatar of Rosbone

Posts: 2144 | Subs: 2


And just FYI: Age of Empires IV, a brand new title destined to "revive" RTS also released by Relic, right now has about the same player numbers as COH2 even though it released about 6 months ago (proof, previous proof but with better scale).

I just want COH to survive. It's not 2006 anymore guys.

Wow. I have not payed any attention to AOE4. Least not while the COH2 server code needs updated. Fix that and I would buy AOE4 today.

But I did not expect to see its player base has dwindled down to COH2 levels. :guyokay:

Nice post! I have not thought about F2P or Coh3 so I do not have any opinions(yet).

But those SteamCharts support my opinion that imbalanced/bad match making may help future sales and player retention. Is the MM in AOE4 balanced?
6 Mar 2022, 01:01 AM
#4
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1

no thx, i don't want unlimited smurfs and hackers in coh3
6 Mar 2022, 12:53 PM
#5
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

no thx, i don't want unlimited smurfs and hackers in coh3


It's due to this mindset that COH will slowly die that's for sure.

There is no point in releasing a product if it's not even 1% competent against the market forces.

You seriously expect kiddos to spend their hard earned bucks on a complex strategy game that (judging by AOE4 and COH2 in its release state) is not even that good?

When the alternatives are perfectly addictive and FREE games like LOL and DOTA2? Do you seriously believe that?
6 Mar 2022, 12:54 PM
#6
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

Agree. It's just hard to pitch that game model to corporate overlords I'm sure.


Maybe, I don't know. Experience has shown that it's the only way sadly for a game in the strategy genre to even make it out of the door. 60$ is way too risky for a strategy game that may not even be around after 2 years.
6 Mar 2022, 12:57 PM
#7
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197


Wow. I have not payed any attention to AOE4. Least not while the COH2 server code needs updated. Fix that and I would buy AOE4 today.

But I did not expect to see its player base has dwindled down to COH2 levels. :guyokay:

Nice post! I have not thought about F2P or Coh3 so I do not have any opinions(yet).

But those SteamCharts support my opinion that imbalanced/bad match making may help future sales and player retention. Is the MM in AOE4 balanced?


To me, it's forced by the market.

60$ for a strategy game in 2022 is unheard of, even in the major leagues. Even if the gameplay is perfect (which, let's be honest, it won't as long as they allow community to balance things out) and the multiplayer is fair (huge gamble with lelic), people will just not buy in. Not even to mention that WW2 in general is a very very saturated era, and the competition is huge.

I am not pitching a revolutionary idea or scheme, but the only way for survival for our beloved game.
6 Mar 2022, 13:29 PM
#8
avatar of Rosbone

Posts: 2144 | Subs: 2

I am not pitching a revolutionary idea or scheme, but the only way for survival for our beloved game.

:thumb:
6 Mar 2022, 13:58 PM
#9
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1



It's due to this mindset that COH will slowly die that's for sure.

There is no point in releasing a product if it's not even 1% competent against the market forces.

You seriously expect kiddos to spend their hard earned bucks on a complex strategy game that (judging by AOE4 and COH2 in its release state) is not even that good?

When the alternatives are perfectly addictive and FREE games like LOL and DOTA2? Do you seriously believe that?

the big difference is that DotA and LoL have 2003 graphics and run on every pudding PC. the 2nd reason they are so popular is that you only control 1 unit which is dumb imo but people prefer less complex games
6 Mar 2022, 15:53 PM
#10
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197


the big difference is that DotA and LoL have 2003 graphics and run on every pudding PC. the 2nd reason they are so popular is that you only control 1 unit which is dumb imo but people prefer less complex games


You are hard coping sadly.

Those games whether simple as fuck or not are the direct competitors of COH3 in the strategy market.

And no, graphics play the least role since most games can run on any pc using low settings. The reason for this is that the games are free and addicting. COH3 should strive to be both to even make it. And to realize this you should just see my proof above.

But no, I guess it's better to play a game with hardly 1k players at any time of the day. It's also better, it seems, to kill a game by making it obsolete rather than rising to the occasion of its release market.

Yeah, poor you.
6 Mar 2022, 21:30 PM
#11
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1



You are hard coping sadly.

Those games whether simple as fuck or not are the direct competitors of COH3 in the strategy market.

And no, graphics play the least role since most games can run on any pc using low settings. The reason for this is that the games are free and addicting. COH3 should strive to be both to even make it. And to realize this you should just see my proof above.

But no, I guess it's better to play a game with hardly 1k players at any time of the day. It's also better, it seems, to kill a game by making it obsolete rather than rising to the occasion of its release market.

Yeah, poor you.


poor you if you think 14 year olds will abandon DotA who relate to all this blingbling, stylish looking heroes and a netflix series for a semi realistic ww2 game
6 Mar 2022, 22:48 PM
#12
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197



poor you if you think 14 year olds will abandon DotA who relate to all this blingbling, stylish looking heroes and a netflix series for a semi realistic ww2 game


Not only 14year olds are the players of strategy you know.

The players Relic should spend time and money winning over are undecided 20somethings who go to college and have a lot of free time, but have not committed to LoL or DotA2. This base is literally huge.
6 Mar 2022, 23:36 PM
#13
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2

Maybe, I don't know. Experience has shown that it's the only way sadly for a game in the strategy genre to even make it out of the door. 60$ is way too risky for a strategy game that may not even be around after 2 years.

There's plenty of other examples. There's AoE2 that has about 20k players if I remember correctly (only the DE edition) and many Paradox titles have even gained or at the very least retained a ton of players over the years. Similar situation with Civilization (heck, even Civ4 is gaining players albeit at a very low player count). And those titles are vastly more complex than CoH2 in the strategy department. Almost all of the games you mention are Mobas, not RTS games. Strategy games are not dead, but they need to be well made.

I personally am not a fan of F2P titles. They often water down the content and need to refinance themselves by continuous addition of content that often comes out in a shitty state. Not saying this has not happened with CoH2 as well, but for F2P games it is almost a given.
As others said, they also introduce issues regarding smurfs and cheaters. I am happy about every game that does not work with quick rewards, loot crates and other bullshit to keep kids playing it. I am actually happy to shell out money if I get a decently made game. Rough around the edges for sure, but I am happy to accept that if the gameplay is right.
7 Mar 2022, 00:27 AM
#14
avatar of didimegadudu

Posts: 66

not gonna pay 60, 5 us maybe
7 Mar 2022, 05:53 AM
#15
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 578


There's plenty of other examples. There's AoE2 that has about 20k players if I remember correctly (only the DE edition) and many Paradox titles have even gained or at the very least retained a ton of players over the years. Similar situation with Civilization (heck, even Civ4 is gaining players albeit at a very low player count). And those titles are vastly more complex than CoH2 in the strategy department. Almost all of the games you mention are Mobas, not RTS games. Strategy games are not dead, but they need to be well made.


Coh's good at PvP, the campaigns always suck because the ai is terrible. all the other titles you listed have great single player aspects that are worth the purchase

I think relic should at least offer a free to play multiplayer module; maybe just 2 factions or something
7 Mar 2022, 10:29 AM
#16
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197


snip


Finally a decent reply. Let's see:

There's AoE2 that has about 20k players if I remember correctly (only the DE edition) and many Paradox titles have even gained or at the very least retained a ton of players over the years.


AoEII Definitive Edition does 2 things good: it has a nice framework for a perfected game and the company running it does not care. AOEII is to this day the gold standard of hardcore RTS titles, and DefEd makes it compatibility and graphically friendly to new systems. This example you cited though is mistaken for a single reason: COH's legacy is not the same as AOE's legacy, in many many respects. AOE is maintained by a giant corporation basically for fun whilst COH should be a competitive title in order to make relic (due to limited resources) care about it. You should see what AOE4 did, which tried to emulate the 1998 formula for 2021, and ended up in the bargain bin.

Paradox's games basically consist of trying to squeeze out every last penny of a very hardcore fanbase and only that. They are not normie friendly and, judging by HOI4 right now and CK3 right now, they are just not fun if you don't buy DLCs which can rack up 1000$. So yeah, it's a good thing that relic does not turn to that business model. As I previously said, the most untapped market right now are 20somethings that have not commited to LoL or DOTA.

Similar situation with Civilization (heck, even Civ4 is gaining players albeit at a very low player count).


Civilization games are almost exclusively single player which allow for a more casual non competitive aura (I know this because Civ VI is my favorite game outside of COH2) and frequently go on sale for like 15bucks for the whole franchise. Again, not really saying something about a competitive WW2 RTS like COH.

I personally am not a fan of F2P titles. They often water down the content and need to refinance themselves by continuous addition of content that often comes out in a shitty state. Not saying this has not happened with CoH2 as well, but for F2P games it is almost a given.


With all due respect, I do not think you get the F2P business model. You are also mistaking F2P for P2W which is something else entirely. For starters, all F2P titles encourage balanced gameplay by removing P2W mechanisms (LOL, DOTA, TF2, Smite and all that do not have paid content that makes you a better player but paid skins that make you look nicer without affecting the gameplay and yes people buy more of that than actual P2W).

How do you think games like TF2 (kind of offtopic I know but I am examining the business model) have become so so prominent and still around after 15 years with numbers that 10-12x COH2? Because it's free and you play the full experience without paying shit. No P2Ws either. Hence, the player is in so good an environment that basically begs to pay for something to reward himself.

As others said, they also introduce issues regarding smurfs and cheaters.


Oh come on that is a childish argument. DOTA2, LOL, CSGO, all have servers that handle 100x COH2 traffic and the manage to catch cheaters and smurfers on time and make them stay out. TBH, on COH2 has actual problems with smurfs and cheaters. Not to mention that with seasons and ranks all that becomes pointless.

I am happy about every game that does not work with quick rewards, loot crates and other bullshit to keep kids playing it.


Good thing you are not an exec though because those bullshit games are taking away COH's market share and potential playerbase.

I am actually happy to shell out money if I get a decently made game. Rough around the edges for sure, but I am happy to accept that if the gameplay is right.


That's a perfectly fine personal preference. But when it comes to the grand scale of videogame economics in 2022, paying 60$ for a game is a gamble almost nobody makes consistently for AAA games. What makes you think that COH3 will be different and not end up with the same playerbase as AOE4 did?



7 Mar 2022, 12:22 PM
#17
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2

AoEII Definitive Edition does 2 things good: it has a nice framework for a perfected game and the company running it does not care. AOEII is to this day the gold standard of hardcore RTS titles, and DefEd makes it compatibility and graphically friendly to new systems. This example you cited though is mistaken for a single reason: COH's legacy is not the same as AOE's legacy, in many many respects. AOE is maintained by a giant corporation basically for fun whilst COH should be a competitive title in order to make relic (due to limited resources) care about it. You should see what AOE4 did, which tried to emulate the 1998 formula for 2021, and ended up in the bargain bin.

I mentioned it in another thread a while ago, one big difference for AoE4's failure is that the game has to compare against AoE2, which as you say is considered to be one of the best, if not even THE best RTS out there. The game does not have many issues in its core design. CoH3 on the other hand has to beat CoH2, and what I read on this forum and the official Relic one I have the feeling that many players would be happy to get a "CoH2 reloaded" without all the bullshit design that is still stuck in this game to this very day.

Paradox's games basically consist of trying to squeeze out every last penny of a very hardcore fanbase and only that. They are not normie friendly and, judging by HOI4 right now and CK3 right now, they are just not fun if you don't buy DLCs which can rack up 1000$. So yeah, it's a good thing that relic does not turn to that business model. As I previously said, the most untapped market right now are 20somethings that have not commited to LoL or DOTA.

Civilization games are almost exclusively single player which allow for a more casual non competitive aura (I know this because Civ VI is my favorite game outside of COH2) and frequently go on sale for like 15bucks for the whole franchise. Again, not really saying something about a competitive WW2 RTS like COH.

I play HOI4 and I find it enjoyable even without DLC. The DLCs themselves often have even bad reviews and are considered optional. While the Paradox DLC flood pisses me off, at least they have a decent policy of introducing features for everyone and not splitting the player base.
The point about SP focus is true though.


With all due respect, I do not think you get the F2P business model. You are also mistaking F2P for P2W which is something else entirely. For starters, all F2P titles encourage balanced gameplay by removing P2W mechanisms (LOL, DOTA, TF2, Smite and all that do not have paid content that makes you a better player but paid skins that make you look nicer without affecting the gameplay and yes people buy more of that than actual P2W).

How do you think games like TF2 (kind of offtopic I know but I am examining the business model) have become so so prominent and still around after 15 years with numbers that 10-12x COH2? Because it's free and you play the full experience without paying shit. No P2Ws either. Hence, the player is in so good an environment that basically begs to pay for something to reward himself.

I know both concepts decently enough.
Again, we can find plenty of examples for both sides. The issue is that most F2P games that finance themselves via cosmetics have some central character for identification of the player. This makes the player's buy cosmetics.
CoH does not have that, or maybe I am just too old to want to make my tanks or whatnot "look cool". But if the tone of the game is supposed to be dark and gritty, you can't go crazy with cosmetics.


Oh come on that is a childish argument. DOTA2, LOL, CSGO, all have servers that handle 100x COH2 traffic and the manage to catch cheaters and smurfers on time and make them stay out. TBH, on COH2 has actual problems with smurfs and cheaters. Not to mention that with seasons and ranks all that becomes pointless.

Everything but childish. I don't know about the other games, but CSGO had and still has large issues with cheaters. Just check out the Steam reviews, you'll still find plenty of people complain about cheaters and smurfs.

You've previously made the point that CoH2 and CoH3 are not backed by huge companies and have limited resources. Apparently even the giants in your cited games don't manage to filter their community properly.

It is obvious that if your only repercussion is the need to create a new throw-away email address and make a new Steam account, cheaters and other highly toxic people will never get filtered out and have it easier to cycle back into the game.

Good thing you are not an exec though because those bullshit games are taking away COH's market share and potential playerbase.

It's not even proven that those games compete with the CoH franchise. The games you cite are Mobas, not RTS. I love RTS, but would never touch Mobas. Am I representative? Probably not. Did you show any data or at least game dev statements that those games compete? Also no.
These are different types of games and they likely cater to different audiences.

That's a perfectly fine personal preference. But when it comes to the grand scale of videogame economics in 2022, paying 60$ for a game is a gamble almost nobody makes consistently for AAA games. What makes you think that COH3 will be different and not end up with the same playerbase as AOE4 did?

How did you come to that conclusion? There are so many huge AAA franchises (BF, COD, AS just to name a few) that charge 60-80 bucks per game plus nonsensical DLC or season passes and release games on an annual level, and people keep buying it.
7 Mar 2022, 18:28 PM
#18
avatar of gunther09
Donator 22

Posts: 538

Interesting Idea.
They could test it right now with COH2.
Let it run for a few months, see how it goes.
No need to announce a timeline, just let 3v3 run free. And if serious problems arise - stop it.
And if it is great, adapt for COH3.
7 Mar 2022, 20:50 PM
#19
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197


snip


Replying only to the points I disagree with.

I play HOI4 and I find it enjoyable even without DLC. The DLCs themselves often have even bad reviews and are considered optional. While the Paradox DLC flood pisses me off, at least they have a decent policy of introducing features for everyone and not splitting the player base.
The point about SP focus is true though.


Paradox is the single worst developer right now due to their dlc policy. Their games are literally unplayable without spending an additional 200$ on DLCs, and you saying that you personally enjoy them just makes me understand that you belong at a minority of players. At any rate, PDX is the worst example to follow I think we can agree on that.

I know both concepts decently enough.
Again, we can find plenty of examples for both sides. The issue is that most F2P games that finance themselves via cosmetics have some central character for identification of the player. This makes the player's buy cosmetics.
CoH does not have that, or maybe I am just too old to want to make my tanks or whatnot "look cool". But if the tone of the game is supposed to be dark and gritty, you can't go crazy with cosmetics.


You are right and that is true. I also don't really enjoy it. However, would I pay this price in order to have a playerbase 3-4x than the current one? Absolutely.

Everything but childish. I don't know about the other games, but CSGO had and still has large issues with cheaters. Just check out the Steam reviews, you'll still find plenty of people complain about cheaters and smurfs.

You've previously made the point that CoH2 and CoH3 are not backed by huge companies and have limited resources. Apparently even the giants in your cited games don't manage to filter their community properly.

It is obvious that if your only repercussion is the need to create a new throw-away email address and make a new Steam account, cheaters and other highly toxic people will never get filtered out and have it easier to cycle back into the game.


Maybe you didn't get what I said. I never said about eradicating hackers and smurfs and whatnot that's humanly impossible. I am just stating a simple fact: networks handling 50-60x COH2's traffic are better at staying updated and keeping the community as safe and fair as it gets than Relic's handling (who are also putting a 60$ pricetag on it). Obviously all games have hackers and are generally unfair, but I would bet a lot of money on finding a way more fun game today on CSGO and LOL rather than COH2.

And again let's make the economic argument: if everyone else is doing it, are they idiots while they make so much money or are we smart because we don't evolve with the times?


It's not even proven that those games compete with the CoH franchise. The games you cite are Mobas, not RTS. I love RTS, but would never touch Mobas. Am I representative? Probably not. Did you show any data or at least game dev statements that those games compete? Also no.
These are different types of games and they likely cater to different audiences.


Sure I do not have such statistics as that's not my job to find out. I am just talking of my experience and feelings. I am just saying that a huge market goes untapped by a game in 2022 staying behind a 60$ pricetag especially if it's by a developer like relic who, let's be real here, is not what it once was.


How did you come to that conclusion? There are so many huge AAA franchises (BF, COD, AS just to name a few) that charge 60-80 bucks per game plus nonsensical DLC or season passes and release games on an annual level, and people keep buying it.


Even AAA games today stay on the 60-80$ price tag for maybe 2 weeks in order for the company to have a cash stimulus. After that they immediately cut the price down and load up on the multiplayer dlcs. I am talking exclusively about MP games ofcourse.

On a general note, thanks for the kind conversation. You are a good mod.
7 Mar 2022, 21:56 PM
#20
avatar of Solar.

Posts: 22

No dealing with cheaters is difficult enough for massive companies like valve and riot, if coh goes f2p that just means cheaters don't have to risk anything if they get caught. I still get regular games in coh2 for 2v2 and was doing okay at getting 1v1's recently and coh2 is almost 9 years old. Most dedicated or interested players will buy coh3 at full price but they'll eventually be sales or the price will drop for late adopters.
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