The problem with USF Rear Echelon Squads

Not sure the stats, but this unit is probably the weakest infantry unit. More likely worse than soviet combat engineers, and at least Ost Pioneers do fairly well in close combat (Plus that sight bonus) Which means in early games against OKW, you're going to be looking at 2 Riflemen Squads + 1 RE squad vs 1 Sturmpioneer squad + 2 Volk squads (or 2 sturmpio + 1 volk). On paper, I don't see how the USF is expected to win in this scenario. When trying to secure an important VP or resource point, the OKW player can just throw him his entire force in the beginning of the game and you're always going to lose because the RE squad handicaps the USF troops.

I think these engineers need some kind of buff. Nothing crazy, but at least to the point they're no longer a handicap for the early game.

They used to be useful against Kubels thanks to their rate of fire. The reduction in rof for extra accuracy was dumb imo.

The Kubel saw a reduction in armor so it not an issues anymore.

They used to be useful against Kubels thanks to their rate of fire. The reduction in rof for extra accuracy was dumb imo.

Yeah, I'll admit I've been shocked when I've seen them manage to take out a retreating kubel a few times. Agreed, since their damage is pretty poor.

The Kubel saw a reduction in armor so it not an issues anymore.

Kind of an irrelevant point.

The Kubel saw a reduction in armor so it not an issues anymore.

How so? The switch to lower ROF with higher accuracy does indeed result in less overall DPS against vehicles, regardless of armor. The huge target size compared to infantry models means the extra accuracy is basically wasted since REs couldn't miss the Kübel before anyways.
Also the armor nerf went hand in hand with an increase of HP IIRC

They should gain their 5man bonus at vet2, they simply do not contribute enough on the field to gain enough veterancy to actually reach vet3 in any reasonable amount of time.Also revert the RoF>Acc change.

The Kubel saw a reduction in armor so it not an issues anymore.

Kubel is absolutely overpowered and clowns USF early game. I’d know that since I’ve played top 5 USFs in 1v1 5 times the past week and won 4 times very easily with the Kubel destroying them early game.

REs having their rof reduced is absolutely a bad change.

How so? The switch to lower ROF with higher accuracy does indeed result in less overall DPS against vehicles, regardless of armor. The huge target size compared to infantry models means the extra accuracy is basically wasted since REs couldn't miss the Kübel before anyways.
Also the armor nerf went hand in hand with an increase of HP IIRC

Kubel used to be a problem for USF because of armor when that armor was lower (for HP) the problem was solved...

Kubel's armor was reduced by:
Front x0.67
Rear x0.42

Rear echelon did not have their ROF changed as T.R. Stormjäger claims but the damage:

"Rear Echelon Troops

Previously, Rear Echelon carbines were far too inaccurate, yet dealt somewhat high damage. This made them unreliable in most cases, even at point-blank. To make their carbines perform more consistently, damage has been reduced while accuracy has been increased.

M1 Carbine damage from 10 to 8
M1 Carbine accuracy from 0.403/0.288/0.23 to 0.51/0.3456/0.276"

(edited to add information)

Kubel used to be a problem for USF because of armor when that armor was lower the problem was solved...

Nothing is solved, Kubel is overpowered af right now. You’re literally talking out of your rear end.

Nothing is solved, Kubel is overpowered af right now. You’re literally talking out of your rear end.

USF have 53% win rate vs OKW in the last patch.

You are the one "literally talking out of your rear end" as usual

The problem with USF early game is that it is by far the weakest. RE is just part of the situation.

RE is the weaker fighting unit unless you count the major or USF medics. RE don't have a specific rule of engagement, they lose vs anything at close range and only win vs pioneer if they are negative cover involved during the fight. They're also the most unreliable unit in the game imo. Even their ability to suppress is completely unreliable, sometimes it works sometimes not and you don't know why.

Riflemen are overpriced for their performance. Or the other way around, the modding team buffed so much OKW and Ostheer early game that riflemen went from balanced to underperformant by far.
- They get destroyed mid to close range by Sturmpioneer for only 20 manpower more.
- Considering they delta in cost between them and Pioneer (80 manpower), they should perform the same ways vs pioneer as ST perform vs them, but that's not the case.
- They should destroy the same way volks once mid to close range as ST perform vs them for the same cost (20 manpower), but that's also not the case.
- They should destroy the same way grens once mid to close range as ST perform vs them since the cost delta is 40 manpower, but that's also not the case.

Mortar is a smoking joke. You cannot count on it to do anything else than smoking an area making it a kind of non combattant unit.

USF early game is also the slower, whenever you decide to do 2xriflemen or 3xriflemen your next unit will always come after you're opponent equivalent thanks to lieutenant/capt excessives build times. But hey! imagine if USF could field an early HMG or worst, an early ATgun!

Vs Ostheer, you're always fighting the first 4-5 first minutes with less units, the only excepting is if the Ostheer player went sniper, in that case you're even in number but you still have less vision, your opponent has a HMG and a sniper to bleed you with enough gren to support it.

Vs OKW, you can't do shit vs a kubel middly well managed, you're again late in number of units field that perform waaay better than your for a cheaper cost and obviously handicaped by the RE doing almost nothing at any range.

This translate as "You must play perfectly well USF to snowball and win" kind of shitty statement during tournaments just to avoid saying that the modding team trashed the faction.

The problem with USF early game is that it is by far the weakest. RE is just part of the situation.

RE is the weaker fighting unit unless you count the major or USF medics. RE don't have a specific rule of engagement, they lose vs anything at close range and only win vs pioneer if they are negative cover involved during the fight. They're also the most unreliable unit in the game imo. Even their ability to suppress is completely unreliable, sometimes it works sometimes not and you don't know why.

Riflemen are overpriced for their performance. Or the other way around, the modding team buffed so much OKW and Ostheer early game that riflemen went from balanced to underperformant by far.
- They get destroyed mid to close range by Sturmpioneer for only 20 manpower more.
- Considering they delta in cost between them and Pioneer (80 manpower), they should perform the same ways vs pioneer as ST perform vs them, but that's not the case.
- They should destroy the same way volks once mid to close range as ST perform vs them for the same cost (20 manpower), but that's also not the case.
- They should destroy the same way grens once mid to close range as ST perform vs them since the cost delta is 40 manpower, but that's also not the case.

Mortar is a smoking joke. You cannot count on it to do anything else than smoking an area making it a kind of non combattant unit.

USF early game is also the slower, whenever you decide to do 2xriflemen or 3xriflemen your next unit will always come after you're opponent equivalent thanks to lieutenant/capt excessives build times. But hey! imagine if USF could field an early HMG or worst, an early ATgun!

Vs Ostheer, you're always fighting the first 4-5 first minutes with less units, the only excepting is if the Ostheer player went sniper, in that case you're even in number but you still have less vision, your opponent has a HMG and a sniper to bleed you with enough gren to support it.

Vs OKW, you can't do shit vs a kubel middly well managed, you're again late in number of units field that perform waaay better than your for a cheaper cost and obviously handicaped by the RE doing almost nothing at any range.

This translate as "You must play perfectly well USF to snowball and win" kind of shitty statement during tournaments just to avoid saying that the modding team trashed the faction.

I tend to agree, though I don’t think you’re that far behind in units vs Ostheer as RE + 3 rifles vs Pio 3 Grens means the 4th Gren only hits the field 10-20 seconds before LT and I think LT is the bigger powerspike. Midgame though Ostheer’s tools are so good at bleeding USF, especially with the LMGs and 222 timing.

I think vs OKW you have more of a leash as WC51 and cav rifles can tilt the early game in your favour. Depends on builds I suppose, but there’s a reason Skeletron despite being rank 80 in skill has managed to cheese his way to top 10 USF for months.

I tend to agree, though I don’t think you’re that far behind in units vs Ostheer as RE + 3 rifles vs Pio 3 Grens means the 4th Gren only hits the field 10-20 seconds before LT and I think LT is the bigger powerspike. Midgame though Ostheer’s tools are so good at bleeding USF, especially with the LMGs and 222 timing.

I think vs OKW you have more of a leash as WC51 and cav rifles can tilt the early game in your favour. Depends on builds I suppose, but there’s a reason Skeletron despite being rank 80 in skill has managed to cheese his way to top 10 USF for months.

Let's recall something important here, something you've seem to forget. Lt or Capt are supposed to be extra. In the current iteration of the game, they are just a regular squad in your BO with a bit of punch. They fill a gap (10-20 second late) when they should be a powerspike, an aditional unit helping you to overwhelm your opponent.
With how the game is today, they should be your 5th squad on the field. 1xRE, 4xRM matching Ostheer 1xPI 1xHMG and 3xGR and then Cpt or Ltn as a bonus. The same way in return Ostheer get LMG as a bonus when teching BP1.
Same goes vs OKW with SP, Kubel and Volks outmaching RE and riflemen. This could be fine if the lt or capt were reaching the field much faster bringing superiority. That's not the case since they are just regular units in your BO.

You can't build 4xRM, that doesn't work in any way. The modding team through their various changes made Ostheer standard build order going from 1xPI + 1xHMG + 2xGR to 1xPI + 1xHMG + 3xGR with no extra cost delaying the potencial 222/Pgren coming next. OKW starting units have been buffed to heaven vs USF, SP, Kubel and Volks carefully preserved when they were already overperforming vs rifles.

If we look at the situation here, Lt or capt should be 10-20 second earlier than the 4th grenadier or OKW hmg/whatever to make sense with how USF is designed.

And you acknowledged it by yourself. You use the jeep/cav combo to make your way to top5, but look at the numbers: the jeep is cheap and don't delay that much you BO, can cap, can soak damage and let your translate into faster mid game. Cav also are better balanced than riflemen, they actually performs well according to their role and price.

i think that the one and only useful purpose of the rear echelon is to equip bazookas on it and use it as an AT squad, the AI is too bad to justify any sort of usage

I think USF can have mostly issues with OKW. Sturmpios and the somewhat late officer make you trail behind your opponent for the first 5 minutes of the game, at which point the OKW starts upgrading StGs. This can be a tough nut to crack.

I think that's why airborne is so popular. It at least ensures that you can get more firepower on the field after you reach 2-3 pathfinders.

It would be interesting to see the stats without the games that airborne was chosen.

Echelons are probably the poorest squad out there, bazookas is the only real purpose for them.

As a person that plays 3v3 competitive USF only, I tend to hate OST far more than OKW.
Lots of high ranks usually tend to go pio into MG42 into sniper and just bleed me dry. Pios spot for MG42, sniper works from behind the MG42 and pio shares the profile with the rifles -> short range combat. So Rifles need to close in, and they'll be closing into the pio. Hence why there is a need for paths in those scenarios.
Of course, that wouldn't be a problem in 1v1s and 2v2s, but since one MG42 can lock down an entire area (eg Across the rheine beach) in most 3v3 maps, USF is often forced into building a mortar just for smoke... and USF mortar is a popcap eater in a nutshell. Low damage output, especially in late with grens having DMG reduction.

Another problem is the fact that grens fit much better behind most cover objects than 5+ man squads. Rifles tend to have one model outside of cover or at a poor angle compared to the MG arc. Often enough, even though Rifles will be behind green cover, they will get insta suppressed because of that one model.

Grens do have more concentration in each model, being a 4man squad. Meaning that one model in grens is "worth" more than one model drop in rifles or volks or cons. However, for that con, the pro is that they tend to fit extremely nice behind cover, same as 4man sections.

I've made a thread and tested out the echelons.
I've put echelons in green cover.
Pios can charge them across neutral cover. Get to the green cover (opposite the RE) and still win the engagement with 2-3 models alive. You'd have to spend muni to deny the pio charge.

USF is not weak per-say. Just extremely map dependent. For example, if you play USF on a map like steppes, where ALL engagements are long range, and cover is scarce, you can be sure that, unless you go for paths, you will be bleeding hard.

Heck, 3v3 Steppes: If you play OKW vs USF on the munition part of the map (neutral/red cover, no green cover, yellow cover scarce), you can build 2 kubels and just own USF. Or if you're OST, rush a 222 spam and dominate. You can lock down a game easily.

Shame that I don't have the replay, as it was a year or two ago. But I remember on Whiteball express that a vet0 RE flanked the MG42 in yellow cover and the MG42 crew managed to force a retreat. I mean, grens came to help, about 12 seconds later. But after 12 seconds of flanking/firing on a lone MG42 crew that was unresponsive, they didn't even come close to wiping it point blank (I know it's an extreme case of RNG but still), MG42 retreated with 2 models. If those were pios or spios or CEs or Royals, they would probably wipe and steal the MG (ok, maybe CEs wouldn't).
I think that the mod team should have reworked rangers a bit more, so that at least USF can doctrinally choose something else except paths for long range.

I think that Rangers should have had the following:
2 upgrades: 4xTommies or 2x M1919 (140 muni or so, locks 3rd weapon upgrade) -> close/long range weapon paths
Carbines are medium-long range
Utility: Nade + elite zook (3x max)

For the price of 350 MP and 10 pop, I'd say they would add long range flavour to other doctrines besides airborne/recon, which is sorely needed in larger modes with larger, long-range maps (where grens, volks, obers are much more dominant)
Heck, obers have much more utility and are stock (and tad more expensive).

Echelons should get a small buff either in utility or combat, to justify the 200 MP price. Sure they can carry zooks for late game but zooks are not free, and given how they can drop hard until vet3, you'll drop a lot of zooks.


That being said, I don't think USF is UP or OP. Just extremely map dependent and relies on snowballing with LVs the most.