Pioneers vs Rear Echelon

Yes, and no other squad is as cheap.
No one said they compare to "actual" SMG assault squads that for the most part also come much, much later in the game and cost 50% more MP. But pioneers starting at mid range beat Allied main lines in the early game, and they do that until min 5-10 as I described earlier. Or do you seriously want to debate that and stick with your 1 minute?

what? no they dont??? which allied squads?? penals and Riflemen will TEAR through them, or do you mean cons and IS? both of which will still beat them on most occasions unless rng is in favour of pioneers

Yes, and no other squad is as cheap.

Partisan and Ro E are not that much more expensive and fight better.

No one said they compare to "actual" SMG assault squads that for the most part also come much, much later in the game and cost 50% more MP.

Many smg troops are available before minute 1, that includes assault grenadier/assault tommies/assault engineer/Ro Eng support.

I have simply pointed out that other SMG troops comes with abilities that allow them to fight in other situation than defending flank or ambushes behind vision blockers.

But pioneers starting at mid range beat Allied main lines in the early game, and they do that until min 5-10 as I described earlier.

If pioneer could beat allied mainline infatry pio spam would be viable, when it is not.

Or do you seriously want to debate that and stick with your 1 minute?

This is what I have posted and you are entitled to have a different opinion:

...As for pioneers they are not useful in combat past minute 1 unless under very specific conditions.

what? no they dont??? which allied squads?? penals and Riflemen will TEAR through them, or do you mean cons and IS? both of which will still beat them on most occasions unless rng is in favour of pioneers

I've tested it, it's above. If rifles charge pioneers in green cover, rifles win a pyrrhic victory. If rifles charge at pios in yellow cover, rifles win with 3 models remaining and <50% hp bar.
Pios, of course, can not charge rifles in any cover.

Basically, Pios offensive strength at the start of the match is good enough to stand up to rifles and not allow rifles to try and dislodge them from cover. Hence why pio + MG42 is extremely, borderline OP in 3v3s and lane-y maps.

I've tested it, it's above. If rifles charge pioneers in green cover, rifles win a pyrrhic victory. If rifles charge at pios in yellow cover, rifles win with 3 models remaining and <50% hp bar.
Pios, of course, can not charge rifles in any cover.

Basically, Pios offensive strength at the start of the match is good enough to stand up to rifles and not allow rifles to try and dislodge them from cover. Hence why pio + MG42 is extremely, borderline OP in 3v3s and lane-y maps.

One is not supposed to charge supported HMGs with infatry.

There is very little reason for riflemen to move close than 10 units of pioneer in cover

That is why USF have T0 mortar and access to smoke grenades.

One is not supposed to charge supported HMGs with infatry.

There is very little reason for riflemen to move close than 10 units of pioneer in cover

That is why USF have T0 mortar and access to smoke grenades.

dedicated usf main who is constantly under the rank 300 vs the strategy of a guy who won five games of USF in the span of 10 years

dedicated usf main who is constantly under the rank 300 vs the strategy of a guy who won five games of USF in the span of 10 years

I've played vs him, owned him HARD 2 times. Played with him once, he played USF, got owned HARD by barely half a faction (the enemy actually knew who he was and decided to focus me and the 3rd ally hard, Vipper was just camping on the VP spot and doing 0 dmg, spamming Priests). The best thing to do is just ignore, let him talk to himself. The only maps where USF can actually build a mortar and not suffer for the rest of the game are maps like Ettelbruck.
Dense, tight maps.
Those maps, because it's super easy and quick to rotate and help out a teammate because in the end, USF mortar is just bad at doing damage and does not fit into any competitive build for any game mode.
If you go mortar vs OKW, you'll get steamrolled by kubels and spios.
If you go mortar vs OST, then you better pray to God that the OST player will not adapt and still go double MG42. Most good player will just upgrade fast MGs + 222 and push the USF back to base...
And on those dense, tight maps, you'll only be spamming the smoke, 0 bleed, 0 dmg, just smoke usage. If you tech nades early to bypass the shi*stain that is the USF mortar (glorified smoke dispenser), you delay the light vehicle pressure. In 80% of games I manage to squeeze out an AAHT and turn the game in my favor by the 5min45s mark.
I've seen USF players play double mortar and then wonder how grens/volks/spios just dominate them. Heck, back when I was consistently oscillating between 200 and 300, I used to play one mortar vs OST. I stopped playing it when I noticed that it did jack-sh*t... it's just better to avoid OST MG42 in buildings or behind heavy cover on such lane-y maps and shift attention elsewhere until you get nade tech + captain On Me + AAHT + double pak howi.

Now, if USF had a T0 .50 cal, then it would be another story, but then that would not be USF, that would be a retarded OST wannabe.


In the end, the T0 USF mortar exists purely to give an argument for countering an MG42 early on, without any thought on how building a mortar cripples you in the long run. But again, that's mainly a 2v2+ problem. 1v1, where most balance is made, can bypass the MG42 by just not playing on the side of the map. There are enough points and the map is small/wide enough to avoid even double MG42s without sacrificing fuel/muni nor regular control points.

RE are bad at everything and overpriced for it, if they're only good at capping why don't they have a capping rate bonus? would make them OP?

Heck, back when I was consistently oscillating between 200 and 300, I used to play one mortar vs OST. I stopped playing it when I noticed that it did jack-sh*t...

it is surprising,
but sometimes allied mortars simply do nothing at all, i have had several games where my soviet mortar would actively fire shells upon shells, and it would reach veterancy 2 without killing a single enemy soldier (or have less than 3 kills in total)


meanwhile the "weak" leig 18 would get a dozen kills and veterancy 5 in the exact same timeframe and in the exact same game as the 0 kill vet 2 mortar. but then again, rng giveth, rng taketh away, hence i sometimes would strike a bulls eye, just not when it really matters.


its surprising that a pak howi doesn't give the user smoke, i played USF and was surprised that it didn't have it

Pak had vet 1 WP smoke.
Also USF mortar for smoking is good through. Espcially against Sniper.
Back to Real Echelon. I rather follow Hannibal solutions, We could give RE some treatment which is benifit 200 mp unit in worth game !

dedicated usf main who is constantly under the rank 300 vs the strategy of a guy who won five games of USF in the span of 10 years

Charging smg troops in cover with carbine troops is choosing an unfavorable fight.

Using an unfavorable fight as an argument does not really make a good argument.

Rank does not change bad game play.

I think the cost(200mp) of RE is not because of it's combat stat.

It's because of...

1. USF don't need to build RE if original one is alive. - Thanks to Vehicle crew
2. USF weapon rack can spike RE's combat efficiency. So if it is cheaper, we will again see RE spam.

Consider RE spam is a thing, Would it be better than 2016 version ?.
Also when you lose one, Would you want to pay 200mp for sweepr squad ?. Yet need to pay 100-120 ammo for combat duty ?
And again, RE reinfor cost is higher than normal engineer. ....

Consider RE spam is a thing, Would it be better than 2016 version ?.
Also when you lose one, Would you want to pay 200mp for sweepr squad ?. Yet need to pay 100-120 ammo for combat duty ?
And again, RE reinfor cost is higher than normal engineer. ....

Do you actually know the cost of reinforcement for each engineer entity or are you just ranting because "everything allied up and everything axis is OP"?

Also when you lose one, Would you want to pay 200mp for sweepr squad ?

yes

And again, RE reinfor cost is higher than normal engineer. ....

Also they are the second cheapest engi unit to reinforce, the first one being CE. But if you play only soviets and USF you are tecnically correct

Also they are the second cheapest engi unit to reinforce, the first one being CE. But if you play only soviets and USF you are tecnically correct

CEs are in another league, due to stock flamer, good mines and synergy with merge/m3 clown car. + If unit is cheap, that doesn't mean it should be automatically bad.
REs might be third weakest infantry combat unit (after medics and major).

I think there could be 3 ways thinking about what to do with REs:
-Buff their combat capabilities (like buffing ROF of carbines, or nerfing ROF and bumping damage to 9)
-Put an emphasize on their utility. Like giving acc bonus on zooks, increased building speed with sweeper, generally having faster mine clearing and barbwire cutting speed compare to other engies.
-Don't touch them and close the thread

CEs are in another league, due to stock flamer, good mines and synergy with merge/m3 clown car. + If unit is cheap, that doesn't mean it should be automatically bad.
REs might be third weakest infantry combat unit (after medics and major).

I think there could be 3 ways thinking about what to do with REs:
-Buff their combat capabilities (like buffing ROF of carbines, or nerfing ROF and bumping damage to 9)
-Put an emphasize on their utility. Like giving acc bonus on zooks, increased building speed with sweeper, generally having faster mine clearing and barbwire cutting speed compare to other engies.
-Don't touch them and close the thread

thekessvn claimed that "And again, RE reinforce cost is higher than normal engineer." which is factually false, SP/pioneers/RO are all more expensive to reinforce.

CE are cheaper to reinforce simply because they are cheaper to build and still follow original reinforcement ratio while RE should reinforce at the same price as pioneers.

I think there could be 3 ways thinking about what to do with REs:
-Buff their combat capabilities (like buffing ROF of carbines, or nerfing ROF and bumping damage to 9)
-Put an emphasize on their utility. Like giving acc bonus on zooks, increased building speed with sweeper, generally having faster mine clearing and barbwire cutting speed compare to other engies.
-Don't touch them and close the thread

Honestly whole topic is misrepresented a bit imo. If you forced to rebuild REs then out of the gate they are weaker then Pios, but again you wont be getting them again that early into the game and by the time you might need to rebuild them, engi units would be either repairing\building\sweeping but not fighting.

But if you keep your first REs alive, give them weapons and vet them up during the game, then they will be usufull in combat during whole game (especially with zooks) unlike other engi units, which will be burned out by repairing and doing other engi duties, while REs will be fighting\capping.

So pretty much RE combat firepower means at least someting only super early into the game, in first few engagements, after that they either become a better support unit or just another sweeping engi firepower of which is irrelevant anyway because even SPs will struggle at this point in firefights.

In other words yes, starting RE will usually lose to starting Pio, but you are not paying 200MP for this RE anyway, you are not forced to rebuild them if you lose them early and if your opponent(s) arent laying mines, you are not forced to rebuild them at all. On top of the fact that USF\Ost have pretty much same starting MP anyway.

And as I matter of fact, I dont really understand why their cost should somehow garantee them win against charging pios to begin with. You can always kyte pios with them, soft retreat and keep pios annoyed not letting them cap freely and so on.

thekessvn claimed that "And again, RE reinforce cost is higher than normal engineer." which is factually false, SP/pioneers/RO are all more expensive to reinforce.

CE are cheaper to reinforce simply because they are cheaper to build and still follow original reinforcement ratio while RE should reinforce at the same price as pioneers.

all I'm saying that CE are cheaper and better by a mile. Imo CEs is a better combat unit then pios, but pios have 42 sight, so it evens out a bit.

I'm not saying that I agree with OP, that REs should win vs pios in that scenario, my claim is that REs is a bad unit. It is in fact so bad, that you only build it for sweeping. If you give every other faction a self repair, you'd see that there are a lot of reasons to build other engies. These reasons are
Pios: cover, flamer, mines, synergy with hmg42 cause of 42 sight.
Ro E: snare, mines, emplacement building
CE: flamer (extreme synergy), mines.
Sturms: excellent cqc performance, can hide sweeper, shrek. They also have the best repair speed and easiest to vet
And RE: cover (great on the surface, good luck not getting locked when building 2 Tank traps), maybe double zooks. On top of that REs have extremely bad stock combat performance.
Ofc, every engie can sweep, lay wire and cut it. Caches are not included, because I don't care about caches.

all I'm saying that CE are cheaper and better by a mile.
...

We agree that CE are the most cost efficient stock engineer unit after the number of buffs it has received.

If you give every other faction a self repair, you'd see that there are a lot of reasons to build other engies...

USF's ability to self-repair makes RE redundant not bad. They can support a Pershing just fine.

...On top of that REs have extremely bad stock combat performance.
...

RE's stock DPS is in line with stock CE DPS, so I do not see why you describe it as "extremely bad".

They also get one of the best vet 1 combat bonus.

RE's stock DPS is in line with stock CE DPS, so I do not see why you describe it as "extremely bad".

They also get one of the best vet 1 combat bonus.

so apparently stock CE is a decent unit. Literally 4 men con squad, so good. Ok dude.