Seems odd that JT can nuke heavy at with barrage

None of them managed to destroy a full HP 17p, man brumbar damage was 700 (from a potentially max 750) and JT 460 (from a potentially max 480/800 with 3/5 shots)
17p has 900 HP.

Thanks for confirming that JT can hit 17pdr beyond its range with JT barrage, and for testing the 3 shot barrage.

It's interesting that the JT applied 460 of its maximum possible 480, on average. That's really good consistency. If we estimate the 5-shot barrage along similar lines, we'd get around 740 damage from the 5 shot.

It's good that the JT can't one-shot a 17 pdr, like offmap arty say, but important to note that it could help destroy the emplacement with some help from friends. We wouldn't want a barrage that can nuke things all by itself, now would we...

I'm curious what'd happen to some t34s grouped up in that same area. The JT barrage, it's been established, has great AP.

Yeah the ability is OP. I'm gonna use and enjoy it as long as I can, in 2v2+ modes.

Thanks for confirming that JT can hit 17pdr beyond its range with JT barrage, and for testing the 3 shot barrage.
...

You are welcomed.

These test are rather easy to perform yourself even with cheat mode 1.

Just enable health monitor and use 100% heal button in the end a text will appear explaining how much health it has repaired.

Only make sure that have disable instant build when making the 17p emplacement.

...I do have to point out that actually hit box of the 17p is not the same as the area with sandbag...

Am I misunderstanding something here? I recall multiple debates about the differences between pak43 and 17pdr, and one fact that was always highlighted was that the 17pdr had a massive hurtbox compared to the pak43, as in the entire entity, sandbags and all, cause damage to the 17pdr. Unless that's changed recently I'm pretty sure this is still the case.

They do have scatter but I've tested it yesterday on Redball firing with and without Fog of War.
Without FOW it fires quite accurately within the circle at max range. Low scatter.
Outside of FOW it fires less accurately but still a tight scatter. In 3 activations at max range into FoW, only one shell out of all 3 barrages hit outside of the circle (approx). Tested it with a vet5 JT. Scatter exists as with all multiple shell barrages but on JT it's quite non-existent. Especially since fussies come with the commander which have premium sight and flares.

The Scatter does seem like it should be bigger, just by looking at the stats. But at the same time the AOE is humongous with exceptional one hit kill radius. So no surprise her about JT being able to pop a full squad clumped up in yellow cover.

Personally I haven't built the unit in more then a year and a half, when I used to play 4v4. And it 2v2 I just pick AT overwatch at a slightest hint of facing any heavy TD, while never touching that crap while playing axis. Kind of funny seeing people rage after seeing their stuff nuked from the space, not realizing that they themselves are using a unit, requiring around 1 action per minute to be effective

Am I misunderstanding something here? I recall multiple debates about the differences between pak43 and 17pdr, and one fact that was always highlighted was that the 17pdr had a massive hurtbox compared to the pak43, as in the entire entity, sandbags and all, cause damage to the 17pdr. Unless that's changed recently I'm pretty sure this is still the case.

Hitbox and graphical representation are different things.

I suggest you test in cheat mode vs a weapon with little AOE and find out for yourself and return with the test results.

On to another issues and since the scatter values have been supplied can we end the claim that JT does not have scatter since it clearly has?

I do have to point out that actually hit box of the 17p is not the same as the area with sandbag.

This can been see if one fire an ATG will small aoe and shot land within the circle it will do little to no damage.

I did some testing and fired 10 barrage of three shots on 17p from a brumbar and JT at around max range in normal map not test range.

Brumbar did on average 577 damage (as I remembered it has bonus damage vehicles)
JT did on average 312 damage

None of them managed to destroy a full HP 17p, man brumbar damage was 700 (from a potentially max 750) and JT 460 (from a potentially max 480/800 with 3/5 shots)
17p has 900 HP.

Very interesting results, thanks for sharing these.

Btw, do you know where does the Brummbaer's extra damage come from? I didn't even know it deals more against emplacements. Also:

Only make sure that have disable instant build when making the 17p emplacement.

Why is this important? I remember there are some issues when spawning vehicles vs building them, but I never heard about any bugs related to instant building speed being enabled.

Very interesting results, thanks for sharing these.

You are welcomed.
(a lot of digital could be saved if people made test like this before posting...)

Btw, do you know where does the Brummbaer's extra damage come from? I didn't even know it deals more against emplacements.

Target tables. It does extra damage vs building and emplacement similar to AVRE/ST.

Imo that is the design these vehicles should follow as assault guns more about destroying strong points and less about squad wipes.

I had suggested a long time ago thankfully it was implement to the ST recently.

Creating dedicated vs emplacements could help them be to be balanced easier.

Also:
Why is this important? I remember there are some issues when spawning vehicles vs building them, but I never heard about any bugs related to instant building speed being enabled.

Instant production (at least in version 1) does actually speed up production of buildings. It simply "materializes" buildings but those structures are not updated and in many cases are different from actual game buildings.

With all the information have been presented, i think the jt barrage range should be decrease to 65-68 to enable 17lb to return fire.

17-lber should be the counter to the JT, as a stationary AT weapon should be the counter to a heavy tank destroyer. Especially now that the Stuka's incendiary barrage was moved from vet 4, OKW has no excuse to complain about British emplacements.

It's not like the JT doctrine doesn't also have an offmap to help attack emplaced positions either. JT barrage range should be reduced so the vehicle can't just sit a mile away and fire (not like it doesn't already have very high armor to protect it when enemies get in range).

Just think about your mistakes during gameplay if your sole counter to a Jagdtiger + Panther combo is a 17lber emplacement. The rest of the pages where ppl are running numbers are useless.

I can't imagine you ppl playing chess: lost a rook to queen plus horse mate trap: QUEEN OP! PLZ NERF!

Look, 17-lber is dead on arrival outside of some surprise shots and asleep-at-the-wheel Axis players. This is very much by design to prevent the cancerous emplacement meta and even in 2015 it was already dead after the brace nerfs. Even a backteched lone ISG can whittle it down. Feuersturm was the final nail in the coffin.

Instant production (at least in version 1) does actually speed up production of buildings. It simply "materializes" buildings but those structures are not updated and in many cases are different from actual game buildings.

Thankfully in version 2 buildings actually go through the "being built" animation, simply at a much faster speed.

Don't use the teamweapon spawn menu to make the 17pdr though. THAT will mess it up.

Just think about your mistakes during gameplay if your sole counter to a Jagdtiger + Panther combo is a 17lber emplacement. The rest of the pages where ppl are running numbers are useless.

I can't imagine you ppl playing chess: lost a rook to queen plus horse mate trap: QUEEN OP! PLZ NERF!

Poor bait but the chess analogy is only applicable if the Queen was only able to kill kings, couldn't be taken by pawns and other queens and can only move 3 squares at a time. Meanwhile the Bishop takes from 4 squares away and can only take Queens. Except that all of a sudden this one queen has the ability to remove the bishop from the board from 5 squares away.

Look, 17-lber is dead on arrival outside of some surprise shots and asleep-at-the-wheel Axis players. This is very much by design to prevent the cancerous emplacement meta and even in 2015 it was already dead after the brace nerfs. Even a backteched lone ISG can whittle it down. Feuersturm was the final nail in the coffin.

unsurprisingly the pak-43 turned out to be superior to the 17pdr solely because its able to do orbital laser through-the-world precision shots

if it got turned into a 17 pdr clone then you would see it becoming immediately useless

Just think about your mistakes during gameplay if your sole counter to a Jagdtiger + Panther combo is a 17lber emplacement. The rest of the pages where ppl are running numbers are useless.

I can't imagine you ppl playing chess: lost a rook to queen plus horse mate trap: QUEEN OP! PLZ NERF!

unsurprisingly the pak-43 turned out to be superior to the 17pdr solely because its able to do orbital laser through-the-world precision shots

if it got turned into a 17 pdr clone then you would see it becoming immediately useless

Yeah, at least on teamgame maps like Lienne or angermunde or ettelbruck it can be downright OP because it can shoot through multiple buildings AND you can't fire back at it because said buildings block non-vertical indirect. Meaning only way to deal with it is to have some sight over it to drop offmap commander ability if you have any. Only verticals won't collide with buildings/tall trees. Of course, on a map like steppes, which is wide open, pak43 is inferior to 17pdr because it does not have brace.

Also, people seem to forget one big fact about the pak43. It will automatically shoot through smoke if it has any sort of vision. Be it that the tank is attacking something while it's inside smoke or w/e. Pak43 will automatically shoot at that tank (0 micro) as long as there is any sort of vision. If you can see the tank for a split second inside the smoke, pak will shoot at it. 17pdr does not do that. That's also one big advantage that pak43 has. Smoke is useless against it.

If it were up to me, I'd make it a 17pdr clone. Both would have brace. 17pdr would have a munition ability that allows it to shoot one shot up to 90 range that pierces all world objects, while the 17pdr would have a sort of ZiS barrage ability. Otherwise, identical.

Just think about your mistakes during gameplay if your sole counter to a Jagdtiger + Panther combo is a 17lber emplacement. The rest of the pages where ppl are running numbers are useless.

I can't imagine you ppl playing chess: lost a rook to queen plus horse mate trap: QUEEN OP! PLZ NERF!

Also this guy:

cope harder alliedcucks

Also this guy:

Lmao imagine getting serious on an RTS game of all things.

Ontopic: I still stand by what I said. You cannot possibly blame the "OPness" of a Jag + Panther combo whose sole counterplay on the opponent's part is a shitty 17lber.

So my signature stands: cope harder.

Look, 17-lber is dead on arrival outside of some surprise shots and asleep-at-the-wheel Axis players. This is very much by design to prevent the cancerous emplacement meta and even in 2015 it was already dead after the brace nerfs. Even a backteched lone ISG can whittle it down. Feuersturm was the final nail in the coffin.

THANK YOU. Anything in this meta that consists of fixed placement works only against noobs and otherwise is dead on arrival. So many comments yet nobody seems to play the game these days...