Which SOV squad should replace Penals as AT infantry?

Now, I already do know no major patches for this game will be released further down the line, but I think it's something fun to think about.As it stands, Penals are a terrible choice to be lugging 3xPTRS due to their high reinforce+large squad size at the same time.Their large squad size doesn't even prevent vehicles like the OKW/OST P4s bullying them with their low scatter monster shots that often force even the largest squad size infantry to retreat after a single shell has been fired at them, Ostwinds can be forced to retreat provided you are behind heavy cover/garrisoned, but Brumbars will shit all over you with their nuke shells even if they miss due to the gigantic AOE of the shell.

Making TH cons into a non-doctrinal upgrade also might make cons way too favourable compared to Penals than they already are.



Sov CE seem like they are better suited for this role as cheap(21mp reinforce), AT-support infantry that could supplement your army with more AT defenses without sacrificing all of your 290MP 27reinforce squad's AI power.Due to the way the game functions and the low vet requirements for all the Engineering squads in this game giving them 2xPTRS would make them vet faster, in this way also being more useful as repairing squads due to faster vet gain.

I wouldn't give them more than 2xPTRS though to prevent them just being used in place of actual AT guns, you would be investening way too little for too much payoff in that way, sweepers would not be an upgrade that gets locked out by the PTRS upgrade because the balance team already seems to have made their mind up with Sturms being able to have sweepers and a pzshreck.Being that a single PTRS at maximum does 40DMG, 4x2=80 you won't be able to just a-move at their tanks and win like pzshrecks can do in low ranked matches, they're purely a defensive upgrade that could make the difference if, for example during repair-downtime your T-34 gets rushed by a Panther/P4 etc.

Penals should have been removed from T1 long ago and done something like Osttruppen. Give SVT-40 to conscripts as an upgrade. Penals have the dog's fifth paw, they had no place in the tiers from the very beginning and always overlapped the role with another infantry unit.

Penals should have been removed from T1 long ago and done something like Osttruppen. Give SVT-40 to conscripts as an upgrade. Penals have the dog's fifth paw, they had no place in the tiers from the very beginning and always overlapped the role with another infantry unit.

They were call-in inf in the campaign, little better than cons.They have no idea what to do with them in the multiplayer tho.

After playing them for a few months I think their main issue is VET. At Vet2 you have pretty much unlocked all of their performance. An extra 20% acc and cheaper satchel is pathetic for VET3. On top of that their Vet does not really give them any performance enhancement as an AT squad. They don't get extra damage/gun range/satchel range/re-enforce cost with vet. Extra acc means little due to PTRS acc and vehicle target size.

If there is another patch it will most likely be small so I would assume a small change for the unit. My suggestion would be a 10% rec acc buff as part of the upgrade so that they could be more aggressive and dont bleed you dry when they are.
My wish would be the ability to stow the upgrade away similar to minesweeper. That way if a vehicle is no longer around you don't have a useless unit around. It would also allow for some creative flanks and dives.

An extra 20% acc and cheaper satchel is pathetic for VET3. On top of that their Vet does not really give them any performance enhancement as an AT squad.

the buff is actually pretty good if you are muni starved

+ you get bonus to received accuracy at vet 3, rather than weapon accuracy

After playing them for a few months I think their main issue is VET. At Vet2 you have pretty much unlocked all of their performance. An extra 20% acc and cheaper satchel is pathetic for VET3. On top of that their Vet does not really give them any performance enhancement as an AT squad. They don't get extra damage/gun range/satchel range/re-enforce cost with vet. Extra acc means little due to PTRS acc and vehicle target size.

If there is another patch it will most likely be small so I would assume a small change for the unit. My suggestion would be a 10% rec acc buff as part of the upgrade so that they could be more aggressive and dont bleed you dry when they are.
My wish would be the ability to stow the upgrade away similar to minesweeper. That way if a vehicle is no longer around you don't have a useless unit around. It would also allow for some creative flanks and dives.

Thread is already going offcourse, the main point of the thread was whether giving CE 2xPTRS a good idea or not, Penals are a side tangent.

PTRS is meant as an upgrade to keep penals threatening vs LVs and PzIVs (+AT satchel). It has never been a counter all Axis armour weapon and it's a bad Axis player who lets themselves get satcheled barring some fantastic plays.

With penals you get a very powerful 6 man, almost grenadier level dps squad that can outmuscle any inf squad 1v1 except SPs. You trade this for weak scaling lategame, including in the AT department. The PTRS has been buffed to make it much more responsive and require less 'set up' time before each shot, now comparable to other AT inf weapons.

4 man AT squads are generally poor at their jobs (See pzgren schrecks), as would CEs. As it stands there's nothing wrong with the current penal PTRS squad imho.

After playing them for a few months I think their main issue is VET. At Vet2 you have pretty much unlocked all of their performance. An extra 20% acc and cheaper satchel is pathetic for VET3. On top of that their Vet does not really give them any performance enhancement as an AT squad. They don't get extra damage/gun range/satchel range/re-enforce cost with vet. Extra acc means little due to PTRS acc and vehicle target size.

If there is another patch it will most likely be small so I would assume a small change for the unit. My suggestion would be a 10% rec acc buff as part of the upgrade so that they could be more aggressive and dont bleed you dry when they are.

Show Spoiler

PTRS has 40 range already, matching Pz IV/Luchs.

PTRS is meant as an upgrade to keep penals threatening vs LVs and PzIVs (+AT satchel). It has never been a counter all Axis armour weapon and it's a bad Axis player who lets themselves get satcheled barring some fantastic plays.

With penals you get a very powerful 6 man, almost grenadier level dps squad that can outmuscle any inf squad 1v1 except SPs. You trade this for weak scaling lategame, including in the AT department. The PTRS has been buffed to make it much more responsive and require less 'set up' time before each shot, now comparable to other AT inf weapons.





PTRS has 40 range already, matching Pz IV/Luchs.

And it's actually not threatening at all, literally all you have to do is kite at max range with P4 and watch as his manpower bleeds like the Niagara Falls.AT guns do the same PTRS penals but it's obvious why they are all-around better, they're simply not effective because Inf-based AT weapons need high-burst damage, something the PTRS clearly lacks even with three of them, doing with 3 rifles as much DMG as a single PZshreck, with slow ROF to boot.

In the campaign it's actually modelled correctly, PTRS guards for example have a insane ROF and will take half a P4's health pool off in less than 7 seconds.I'm not saying it should be a "counter to all Axis armour" as I've stated in the OP, CE often times do nothing but plant mines and repair late game, they can't actually assist in a armor battle and giving them 2xPTRS would solve that whilst also giving them faster vet just because they plinked some rounds at a 222 or P4 from max range.

Even with the 23% received accuracy, in any prolonged fight PTRS penals had against any armor that wasn't a light tank, if they aren't behind some heavy cover they'll just get shredded and be forced to retreat within seconds.They don't work well as a AT squad, atleast if CE got those PTRS they would have a sustainable amount of MP bleed.

PTRS is meant as an upgrade to keep penals threatening vs LVs and PzIVs (+AT satchel). It has never been a counter all Axis armour weapon and it's a bad Axis player who lets themselves get satcheled barring some fantastic plays.

With penals you get a very powerful 6 man, almost grenadier level dps squad that can outmuscle any inf squad 1v1 except SPs. You trade this for weak scaling lategame, including in the AT department. The PTRS has been buffed to make it much more responsive and require less 'set up' time before each shot, now comparable to other AT inf weapons.

4 man AT squads are generally poor at their jobs (See pzgren schrecks), as would CEs. As it stands there's nothing wrong with the current penal PTRS squad imho.




Show Spoiler

PTRS has 40 range already, matching Pz IV/Luchs.

Just so you know you keep posting incorrect data despite me telling you otherwise, it’s not the first time you have done that with respect to penal squads. Read the feb patch notes. It was changed and modified at vet2. For their cost they shouldn’t have to scale bad. That line of thinking makes no sense and part of the change was to address that but it didn’t fully fix it.

Just so you know you keep posting incorrect data despite me telling you otherwise, it’s not the first time you have done that with respect to penal squads. Read the feb patch notes. It was changed and modified at vet2. For their cost they shouldn’t have to scale bad. That line of thinking makes no sense and part of the change was to address that but it didn’t fully fix it.

Ok I take it back, seems that the vet guide is wrong again. Perhaps I should start looking through my favourite units and seeing what else is wrong \o\

They're 290 MP for a 6 man squad with those stats, not sure how much more generous one could expect for that price tag. Riflemen and IS are 280MP but are worse starting off.

And it's actually not threatening at all, literally all you have to do is kite at max range with P4 and watch as his manpower bleeds like the Niagara Falls.AT guns do the same PTRS penals but it's obvious why they are all-around better, they're simply not effective because Inf-based AT weapons need high-burst damage, something the PTRS clearly lacks even with three of them, doing with 3 rifles as much DMG as a single PZshreck, with slow ROF to boot.

In the campaign it's actually modelled correctly, PTRS guards for example have a insane ROF and will take half a P4's health pool off in less than 7 seconds.I'm not saying it should be a "counter to all Axis armour" as I've stated in the OP, CE often times do nothing but plant mines and repair late game, they can't actually assist in a armor battle and giving them 2xPTRS would solve that whilst also giving them faster vet just because they plinked some rounds at a 222 or P4 from max range.

Even with the 23% received accuracy, in any prolonged fight PTRS penals had against any armor that wasn't a light tank, if they aren't behind some heavy cover they'll just get shredded and be forced to retreat within seconds.They don't work well as a AT squad, atleast if CE got those PTRS they would have a sustainable amount of MP bleed.

How do you kite a range 40 AT rifle with a range 40 cannon? Is there some flaw in the targeting mechanics you can exploit? This time I did check the patch notes and they have 0.5s ready-aim time.

Pzschreck has 7.75s reload time to what...3s on the Penal PTRS? They're much more consistent for dealing damage to LVs and even mediums (Over 100% hit chance).

Your CE aren't crazily busy already just doing those tasks as is? I have to send even my flamethrower guys back to repair as there's just too much damage lategame.

They are not supposed to win 1v1 with a medium tank (Pz IV), this can be seen in testing Tightrope did where they consistently lose (but do heavy damage). Nor should they or it'd be very easy to blob and mass effectively.

I think you're trying to answer a problem that's already been solved. SU-85 is the SOV answer to late game armour fights, not another AT inf squad.

Then there's the big problem that a med tank can just run your AT CE squad around and mow them down at close range without worrying about an AT satchel. You can also do this to a zook/schreck squad because they have to stand still to fire.

EDIT: Even in your original post scenario, I'd argue that even a Pz IV can ignore your AT CEs long enough to finish off your T-34 (1? 2? 3 shots hp?) then bug out. Panther absolutely will.

???

Ok I take it back, seems that the vet guide is wrong again. Perhaps I should start looking through my favourite units and seeing what else is wrong \o\

They're 290 MP for a 6 man squad with those stats, not sure how much more generous one could expect for that price tag. Riflemen and IS are 280MP but are worse starting off.

No prob, I think conscripts and Penals were the only ones that were significantly adjusted. In the notes they say Penals change was to promote late game scaling/bleed. So its obviously a known issue however any changes may be to much. That why I think a minor buff only at VET3 would help, I think they are close but not quite where they should be. Cooldown/slightly more accuracy something to promote diversity. Also comparing them to Rifleman or IS is not really fair as both have the ability to get several AI upgrades, BARS/LMG/BOLSTER/VICKERS/BREN/SANDBAGS(durability). So although they start worse they end up better, hell Rifleman VET probably equalizes them at VET3 without any upgrades.

The biggest issue I find is everyone keeps focusing on starting performance that has almost no impact on late game where most matches get decided. 7MAN cons/LMG Grens scale amazingly despite that not being the case years ago. They kept getting buffed and now there is literally no point in making PG/Penals/Shocks, I hope COH3 allows for a bit more diversity in builds and strats.

In regards to CE having PTRS, that is nonsense that would give SOVIETS an unbelievable amount of AT in the current META. Most builds are 3-4 conscripts which have nades, CE with PTRS, Guards, 2 ZIS and what ever tank. That is insane especially with how spammable their mines are.

Penals are in the best spot they have been since ever. Not OP, not UP, a quick AT squad if you need one. Stop with all this BS about penals being UP or useless or not needed. 3x PTSR on them is great.

Penals are in the best spot they have been since ever. Not OP, not UP, a quick AT squad if you need one. Stop with all this BS about penals being UP or useless or not needed. 3x PTSR on them is great.

Im assuming your talking to me? I think PTRS penals are fine, I was giving suggestions based on what OP stated. I think their AI in the LATE GAME is slightly UP, but since you said that can you point to a high level match between elite players where the PENAL player won without either T2 back tech or Commissar.

Penals are in the best spot they have been since ever. Not OP, not UP, a quick AT squad if you need one. Stop with all this BS about penals being UP or useless or not needed. 3x PTSR on them is great.

ptrs penals have probably the exact same stats as ptrs cons, which is a nice strategy to bleed less

Im assuming your talking to me? I think PTRS penals are fine, I was giving suggestions based on what OP stated. I think their AI in the LATE GAME is slightly UP, but since you said that can you point to a high level match between elite players where the PENAL player won without either T2 back tech or Commissar.

I wasn't talking to anyone specifically otherwise I'd quote. I'm saying that penals as AT infantry is fine as is.
You won't see penals AT in high level 1v1s because you lose a lot of AI power if you change it up and 1v1s are quite tight when it comes to staying power/bleeding.

In 3v3+ I've seen PTSR penals being utilized to great effect. Usually 2x PTSR penals which hold the line against any and all dives, one ZiS and then the bulk of the force is either cons or elite infantry (usually cons). In 3v3, the mode which I play, I also see a skip of t70 (due to the massed AT guns in 99% of games).

Sometimes PTSR work, sometimes they don't. You won't see them often because they are a reactive force. You get them as a reaction to the enemy playstyle. If the enemy is not building mass light vehicles, don't go PTSR, but just tech t2 and get ZiS before minute 13 or a fast T34 if you can afford it.

Can't tell you how many times I've seen mass 222 plays from Ostheer, even top level players. I've seen a premade x3 top 5 3v3 team of three Ostheer players which made (I think) about 12 222s in first 10 minutes on Lienne forest. All 3 of them built 4.
The tactic was:
Bunker down on one side so you get stead income, don't bleed.
Start spamming 222s
Once you have 10+ 222s, you win the game.

Thank FU** that my soviet player had 2x PTSR penals with maxims. Their tactic went down the drain. If it wasn't for PTSRs we'd lose. AT guns are useless against such a mass due to their agility, and Rifles from me and my other teammate were useless. Heck, tried to snare 3 222s, all 3 rifles died before the snare even went off. The animation is something special. My AAHT somehow survived and managed to kill 2 222s (got extremely lucky). They surrendered promptly.
See, a reactive force.
You won't just go PTSR penals like you would go for a ZiS gun. You build ZiS because you expect medium tanks to hit the field and you need something with range to keep them at bay. You upgrade Penals with PTSRs to react to the enemy LV phase, not because you plan to counter a future P4 and get overrun by infantry in the meantime

When you build a ZiS, you gain a ZiS gun, losing NOTHING. When you upgrade penals, you SWAP AI for AT. Hence action-reaction

I wasn't talking to anyone specifically otherwise I'd quote. I'm saying that penals as AT infantry is fine as is.
You won't see penals AT in high level 1v1s because you lose a lot of AI power if you change it up and 1v1s are quite tight when it comes to staying power/bleeding.

In 3v3+ I've seen PTSR penals being utilized to great effect. Usually 2x PTSR penals which hold the line against any and all dives, one ZiS and then the bulk of the force is either cons or elite infantry (usually cons). In 3v3, the mode which I play, I also see a skip of t70 (due to the massed AT guns in 99% of games).

Sometimes PTSR work, sometimes they don't. You won't see them often because they are a reactive force. You get them as a reaction to the enemy playstyle. If the enemy is not building mass light vehicles, don't go PTSR, but just tech t2 and get ZiS before minute 13 or a fast T34 if you can afford it.

Can't tell you how many times I've seen mass 222 plays from Ostheer, even top level players. I've seen a premade x3 top 5 3v3 team of three Ostheer players which made (I think) about 12 222s in first 10 minutes on Lienne forest. All 3 of them built 4.
The tactic was:
Bunker down on one side so you get stead income, don't bleed.
Start spamming 222s
Once you have 10+ 222s, you win the game.

Thank FU** that my soviet player had 2x PTSR penals with maxims. Their tactic went down the drain. If it wasn't for PTSRs we'd lose. AT guns are useless against such a mass due to their agility, and Rifles from me and my other teammate were useless. Heck, tried to snare 3 222s, all 3 rifles died before the snare even went off. The animation is something special. My AAHT somehow survived and managed to kill 2 222s (got extremely lucky). They surrendered promptly.
See, a reactive force.
You won't just go PTSR penals like you would go for a ZiS gun. You build ZiS because you expect medium tanks to hit the field and you need something with range to keep them at bay. You upgrade Penals with PTSRs to react to the enemy LV phase, not because you plan to counter a future P4 and get overrun by infantry in the meantime

When you build a ZiS, you gain a ZiS gun, losing NOTHING. When you upgrade penals, you SWAP AI for AT. Hence action-reaction

Bro, your preaching to the choir. I firmly believe PTRS penals are good enough for what they are especially in team games when a misclick is less forgiveable due to sheer units on the field. I am more speaking on regular Penal squads in 1v1 they are unviable alone in top 200 matches. I have been playing team games lately and starting to remember some of the cheese that can be pulled off.

I liked Penals with flamethrower better. I hate having to use engineers with flamers to take out buildings. That was their original design. Semi-elite AI squad similar to how Panzergrens can be an AT squad.

Soviets don't really have any other infantry squad to handle infantry based AT. Cons can't do it because they're too cheap and only have 1 weapon slot. Same with engineers. That leaves no other non-doctrine infantry slot that can fill that role. I believe lendlease guards can get zooks which are good mid-game AT but basically useless against the bigger cats.

Would be nice to see Penals get a tank snare upgrade, indepedent of PTRS. I always pickup dropped PTRS's from my Guards whenever possible just to get the tank snare.

the point is without current PTRS penal, Guard is 100% pick in almost every 1v1 match. Remember good old time Penal Flamer + Guard ?.
Second,Like Angelus said. As long as PTRS penal acted as Reactive solution and late game zone zone defender for Soviet Tank, thing would be perfect.
Also 4 men PTRS was terrible, look at how PG PTRS in campagin.