OH hulldown / Vet1 KV-1 hulldown

Same name, same usage (since pioneer construction was removed from OH one), same visualisation.

For the sake of quality of live and transparency just make the same ability out of it. Why on earth are this different abilities? This is an unnecessary complication.

Because of balance.

Because of balance.

There is no problem with balance if the abilities would be the same. Please explain the problem you seem to see.

There is no problem with balance if the abilities would be the same. Please explain the problem you seem to see.

Yeah actually now that I think about it, if the OST version is more impactful/ better the only supposed balance reason was because it was necessary to use pioneers to do it.

But now it isn't the case sooooo.... shouldn't they be brought in line with each other? For consistency's sake. Make OST hulldown KV-1 level or the other way around.

Since I don't have the modding tools at hand right now, does anyone know the stats of both versions?

Since I don't have the modding tools at hand right now, does anyone know the stats of both versions?

KV-1:
+15% reload speed
-20% received damage

Ostheer tanks:
+25% weapon range
-25% received damage

I'd like to point out this isn't exactly new in this game. For exemple, Conscripts (with the right doctrine) and Guards (with vet 1) both have the ability to get on the ground, except Conscripts get defensive bonuses while Guards get offensive bonuses. It's just one of those things you have to get used to I think.

I hope they make abilities and weapons more consistent in COH 3. Just think about the G43 who's sometimes a sniper (OST Sniper), sometimes a long-range weapon (OKW JLI), sometimes a close-medium range one (OKW Panzerfusillers)...

I'd like to point out this isn't exactly new in this game. For exemple, Conscripts (with the right doctrine) and Guards (with vet 1) both have the ability to get on the ground, except Conscripts get defensive bonuses while Guards get offensive bonuses. It's just one of those things you have to get used to I think.

They have different names at least. The name "Firing Positions" gives you a hint that it will boost your offensive stats while "Hit the dirt" sounds like diving into cover headfirst.

I hope they make abilities and weapons more consistent in COH 3. Just think about the G43 who's sometimes a sniper (OST Sniper), sometimes a long-range weapon (OKW JLI), sometimes a close-medium range one (OKW Panzerfusillers)...

Yeah, that is confusing indeed.

There is no problem with balance if the abilities would be the same. Please explain the problem you seem to see.

Ostheer hull down vehicles face 60 range TDs with high penetration, KV-1 do not.

KV-1 is already a very cost efficient tank it simply does not need any buffs.

Do you have reason why balance wise KV-1 neeeds a buff? else one can simply change the name of abilities...

Ostheer hull down vehicles face 60 range TDs with high penetration, KV-1 do not.

KV-1 is already a very cost efficient tank it simply does not need any buffs.

Do you have reason why balance wise KV-1 neeeds a buff? else one can simply change the name of abilities...

Of all things I would prefer the developers give an option to switch all descriptions to numerical values and blunt descriptions instead of the vagueness that it is currently.

That and the names to be changed.

ostheer hulldown can affect any and all tanks and it can let you do stupid shit like have an elefant with stupidly increased range, then immediately get mobile again as you see the enemy armor advancing


besides elefants auto defeating allied TDs harder, panthers also outrange tank destroyer range while hulldown

panthers also outrange tank destroyer range while hulldown

Having trouble destroying immobile objects?

Ostheer hull down vehicles face 60 range TDs with high penetration, KV-1 do not.

So Panther gets 62,5 range because it has to face 60 range TDs? KV-1 has to face 50 range Panthers and 50 range StuGs without getting a range of 50 which makes its hulldown obsolete. And whats the reason for PZIV or Ostwind getting 50 range? They won't retaliate vs TDs but face no other unit where they need to have 50 range.

Even with 50 range KV-1 would still be outranged by Ostheer AT-Gun, PAK43, JPIV, Jagtdtiger, Elephant, hulled down STuG or hulled down Panther. So balancewise there would be no problem. There are enough nondoctrinal and doctrinal countermeassures and in addition hull down is not available right from the start fo a Vet0 KV-1 like the Ostheer ability.

The only real balance problem with hulldown is the Elephant in multiplayer at laney maps. 87,5 range which can even shoot 7pdr Emplacements without retaliation is just a little bit silly. The cone of the fixed shooting arc gets quite wide at the end by the way. But I do think that is no problem for you.

Hulldown should give -20% received damage and a fixed +10 range for all tanks: Ostheer and KV-1. That way it would be a lot more transparent and wouldn't grant 17,5 range to Elephant...

Having trouble destroying immobile objects?

Both hulldown abilities (Ostheer/Soviet) can be immediately canceled so its simply false that they are in any way immobile. They just have a delay at building up. Relocate elsewhere or wait until artillery fire ceases and go back into hulldown at the point you want to defend. Where is the problem?

Ostheer hull down vehicles face 60 range TDs with high penetration, KV-1 do not.

KV-1 is already a very cost efficient tank it simply does not need any buffs.

Do you have reason why balance wise KV-1 neeeds a buff? else one can simply change the name of abilities...

Now that I've had some time to think, I actually do have more to say about this.

First off, I never said that KV-1 needed a buff. If you'll read my post, you'll see that my words were: "...if the OST version is more impactful/ better the only supposed balance reason was because it was necessary to use pioneers to do it...[now that this is not the case,] shouldn't they be brought in line with each other? For consistency's sake. Make OST hulldown KV-1 level or the other way around."

Now I want to just say that OSTs Hulldown ability was designed with the downside of having to be dug in by infantry. My assumption is that this is the reason why it was given extra range (so that the tanks can be effective further back without having to be dug in at too risky a position) while the KV-1 was given reload speed instead.

Now, I may not be a high ranking player, but considering that now the ability can be used anywhere at any time, regardless of troops present, I think that the ability deserves to be at the same level as SOV.

I will take your argument and use it back on you; considering that this ability was balanced with the idea that infantry would be the ones digging it in, why does it *need* to stay at the same level?

A panther--which has 960 health to begin with(already the amount of effective HP a KV-1 gets in hulldown, and additionally an extra hit of health VS ANY allied tank destroyer)--when hulled down recieves not only one but TWO extra hits of health, AND gets its weapon range extended to 62 and a half units!

If it was a defensive only ability, this would be excusable, but the fact is that it is now available for use regardless of whether or not there is infantry support. Meaning that it can be used at any time to easily counter those said 60 range allied TDs.

I just don't think that it needs to be at that level for an ability available to every one of OST's tanks with no requirement other than to spec into a doctrine which has hulldown.

If I'm missing something here, please correct me.

Having trouble destroying immobile objects?

didnt read my comment

So Panther gets 62,5 range because it has to face 60 range TDs? KV-1 has to face 50 range Panthers and 50 range StuGs without getting a range of 50 which makes its hulldown obsolete. And whats the reason for PZIV or Ostwind getting 50 range? They won't retaliate vs TDs but face no other unit where they need to have 50 range.

Even with 50 range KV-1 would still be outranged by Ostheer AT-Gun, PAK43, JPIV, Jagtdtiger, Elephant, hulled down STuG or hulled down Panther. So balancewise there would be no problem. There are enough nondoctrinal and doctrinal countermeassures and in addition hull down is not available right from the start fo a Vet0 KV-1 like the Ostheer ability.

The only real balance problem with hulldown is the Elephant in multiplayer at laney maps. 87,5 range which can even shoot 7pdr Emplacements without retaliation is just a little bit silly. The cone of the fixed shooting arc gets quite wide at the end by the way. But I do think that is no problem for you.

Hulldown should give -20% received damage and a fixed +10 range for all tanks: Ostheer and KV-1. That way it would be a lot more transparent and wouldn't grant 17,5 range to Elephant...

In your opinion does KV-1 need a buff? If it does not then it should not get more range when in hull down.

Now again if in your opinion Ostheer hulldown is too powerful I suggest you start a separate thread asking to nerf it.

Claiming that KV-1 needs extra range for " quality of live and transparency" simply does not make sense.

Now that I've had some time to think, I actually do have more to say about this.

First off, I never said that KV-1 needed a buff...

Pls check who I quoted and replied to because it was not you.

...

There is still a, I believe, 10 second delay between being dug in and getting the hull down buffs.

Also, the fact that it originally needed infantry does not work out. The ability was shitty before, therefore it needed a clear buff and not a rework at the same power level. CoH2 just turned out to be a too fast game for even temporarily immobilizing so much of your army (even a medium plus a Grenadier or squad already make up 20% of your maximum army). This is just not economic use of your force, considering that this digging in might need to wait another minute for the enemy to push until it pays off. Or it might not happen at all.

I agree with Vipper regarding the faction context: Axis units need the range, because Allies field more 60 range AT options. That's why hull down is mostly used on the Panther: P4s are still sitting ducks even despite getting 50 range.
Is the ability too strong on the Panther? Personally, I'd say no, but I see why it can be a debate. I should also add that I rarely saw it being used or used it myself, so I don't have much in game experience with this ability.

KV-1 hulldown is very impactful in 1v1. Imagine a t34 with much higher ROF having HP and armor(sort of) similar to KT, albeit being immobile. You just dig in a clutch position and completely ruin the guy. AFAIK no OST unit has similar capabilities, maybe Sturmpazer IV is able to rival it.