USA scotts (M8A1)

Well just comparing the two in performance for teamgames and the T34 wins easily. Despite costing less fuel and munition, it still performs comparably against single squads of infantry, even better if the Sherman hasn't upgraded the pintle. The Sherman relies on the main gun for damage, as evidenced by your graph, so practically speaking the T34 is more reliable with damage against a single squad.

If you give t34 30 sec of shooting without moving, it might be better if M4A3 has no pitle. But everytime you move your tank, for example reversing to avoid a snare, your armor has to move and if it moves, MG DPS drops significantly, while cannon does not care, because it is almost always missing vs infantry. Also cannon gives no F about target size, while MGs definitely do, while having 5 more range.

That's not really true. Main gun scatter/AOE damage mostly ignores cover and standard/vet TS/RA bonuses, while these heavily affect MG dps. Moving also doesn't affect main gun DPS as much as it does the MGs'. And there's also the fact that the T-34 needs to be facing its hull towards the enemy to deal a large portion of its AI DPS, which is often not practical.

The T-34/76 is a great cost efficient medium, with very good AI for its price, but ultimately the HE Sherman is undeniably better at anti-infantry.

Of course. That's why I said the Sherman is definitely better VS blobs. I've already admitted that the sherman is better at AI, and I also rephrased my statement. My point is that T34 does the job better *in a teamgame setting*. You're not going to be attacking blobs with the T34, and neither can you really do it with the Sherman, because axis armor is hard-hitting and easily will scare it off. What you use T34 for boils down to bullying infantry and every once in a while using them to brute force a heavy tank or flank other tanks.

You can do it with the T34 but not the Sherman, just because its a much bigger investment compared to it.

If you give t34 30 sec of shooting without moving, it might be better if M4A3 has no pitle. But everytime you move your tank, for example reversing to avoid a snare, your armor has to move and if it moves, MG DPS drops significantly, while cannon does not care, because it is almost always missing vs infantry. Also cannon gives no F about target size, while MGs definitely do, while having 5 more range.

Sure. I agree. I've already agreed with you that the Sherman is better at AI. The point is that the T34 does roughly the same at less cost. Which is huge for teamgames. Its jack-of-all-trades design hampers it in teamgames. Which is what I meant when I said that T34 was "better" at AI. It's not strictly "better", but the T34 as a whole is in my opinion better in the same role in totality.

Of course. That's why I said the Sherman is definitely better VS blobs...

I would say that the only thing is T34/76 best at, is dying. otherwise m4 is better and more efficient unit.

But...my initial point was, that USF have a top tier AI stock medium that is not used, because why would you, if you can barrage your opponent to death? No reason to build an AI medium tank and invest all that micro and attention in it, if you have much more efficient and less micro intensive option like Scott?

My point is that T34 does the job better *in a teamgame setting*.

It's the opposite actually. The HE Sherman deals AI damage more quickly because of main gun alpha damage which makes it better at hit and run tactics, which makes it better in teamgames because the compact nature of teamgames means sustained fights are dangerous for generalist mediums. It's also better against blobs because of its huge AOE profile. I'd always go for a Sherman unless I'd go heavy with elite infantry, while I'd usually pass on a 76 for something bigger or a Katy.

You can do it with the T34 but not the Sherman, just because its a much bigger investment compared to it.

A much bigger investment being 20 more fuel and some munitions, that comes with the added utility of self repairs, smoke grenades as well as AA on top of better performance in both AI and AT. Easily worth it.

I would say that the only thing is T34/76 best at, is dying. otherwise m4 is better and more efficient unit.

It's not more efficient. It costs more and its armor isn't even that much better. If you want to talk 1v1 I will agree with you all day that the Sherman is better, but in teamgames you're not keeping mediums like that just because there's only so long Allied medium tanks get to stay effective in long teamgames. When the panthers hit the field, Shermans get bullied off while T34s can still be used for flanking & utility because they're cheaper.

But...my initial point was, that USF have a top tier AI stock medium that is not used, because why would you, if you can barrage your opponent to death? No reason to build an AI medium tank and invest all that micro and attention in it, if you have much more efficient and less micro intensive option like Scott?

And I agree with you. Why would you waste your time on a squishy medium tank that gets bullied by panthers when you could make a cheaper scott?

It's the opposite actually. The HE Sherman deals AI damage more quickly because of main gun alpha damage which makes it better at hit and run tactics, which makes it better in teamgames because the compact nature of teamgames means sustained fights are dangerous for generalist mediums

I never said that this wasn't the case. Using T34s in teamgames, I use them to harass and bait the enemy into my defenses. Medium tanks don't last long in teamgames, which is exactly why being cheaper is better. I can happily lose a T34 after having used it to bait a Panzer 4 into a conscript AT grenade and finish it off. A Sherman doesn't have that. All you gained was a 10 fuel advantage and you lost 60 munition plus the cost of snare.

It's also better against blobs because of its huge AOE profile. I'd always go for a Sherman unless I'd go heavy with elite infantry, while I'd usually pass on a 76 for something bigger or a Katy.

Look, maybe this is a learn to play issue, and I'm a huge idiot or something, but T34 always has a place in my army composition. I'm naked without at least one. If the enemy is going hard for panthers and heavy tanks, I'm going to be getting one T34 at least, for a snare. And plus on top of that I can use it to bully infantry. The only thing the Sherman has going for it in that situation is bullying infantry. But it can't control blobs, because the panthers and heavy tanks will eat its ass for dinner.

A much bigger investment being 20 more fuel and some munitions, that comes with the added utility of self repairs, smoke grenades as well as AA on top of better performance in both AI and AT. Easily worth it.

Easily worth losing? It's just barely worth losing to a panzer 4, meanwhile for the same price point a soviet player gets 2 mines and 20 fuel off their next tank, all the while USF's tank destroyer costs 15 fuel more than the Soviet one. To me it's an easy comparison to make. Comparatively it's just not worth it.

Like Klement said, the Scott is doing the job better.

And yes, all that utility is great, but its meh in teamgames.

I'm a noob and just recently started playing CoH2 again. I like to play OST and 4v4.
So far every USF has played the same tactics:
4x Pathfinder, 2x Mortar, 2x Scott and the rest according to situation.

Axis feels quite strong in 4v4 currently and I don't think any of the USF units are too strong by themselves. But this combination with the possibility to permanently take team weapons out of the firefight with intelligent smoke is quite unpleasant - at least for me as an OST. If there is also a halfway good Soviet on the lane with 4x Guards and 120mm mortars it gets really nasty.
I don't know how much effort it is for USF, but as OST non stop repositioning team weapons, retreating units due to small troop size by massive indirect fire is hard work for little return. As a result, I lack field presence and effective counterattacks in the first half of the game. Lower resource income, too, of course.
By the time I can finally get a Pwerfer on the field as a counter, the Allies already have far better on the field due to map control.
I believe that you can turn such games in the lategame, but most of the time they are lost because other players can't stand the pressure and want to give up before or leave the game right away.

Today I had exactly such a situation, 2x USF x Soviet on both sides. For us 2x OKW, OST (me) x OKW. While we could hold our side halfway, the other side was pushed back to our base until minute 20.

I am of course just a noob and understand too little of the game, but I am always glad when there is no good USF on my side, I find much less stressful to play - even losing feels better. >.<

Edit: Anyone who wants to give me great tactical advice for such situations is welcome to PM me. I am always grateful for advice.

I don't know how much effort it is for USF, but as OST non stop repositioning team weapons, retreating units due to small troop size by massive indirect fire is hard work for little return.

Get a 251 and reinforce in the front.

Also keep moving your teamweapons around and have units ahead of them to spot. Stormtroopers are very strong spotters with elite camo.

It's the opposite actually. The HE Sherman deals AI damage more quickly because of main gun alpha damage which makes it better at hit and run tactics, which makes it better in teamgames because the compact nature of teamgames means sustained fights are dangerous for generalist mediums. It's also better against blobs because of its huge AOE profile. I'd always go for a Sherman unless I'd go heavy with elite infantry, while I'd usually pass on a 76 for something bigger or a Katy.

Then you're a rare specie, nobody use Sherman on 2vs2 from top to average players. Even before path/scott meta USF players were going sherman-dozer + calliope or anything else but nobody goes stock sherman and if they do, they build 1 sherman and never re-build it. Hell, when I was using a lot Reco commander and build 1 sherman, once destroyed I always preferred to call a M8 as it does the same job for a cheaper price. And this only if I didn't already decided to call a M8 and no sherman.

As for who's dealing more AI damage, actually P4s are above shermans once the game hit 15 minutes and squads start to get clumsy around every yellow cover on their path. P4s have better scatter which works better in that condition.
As always, there a reason why people still build P4s or T34-76 after 20 minutes but no ones re-build a sherman.

Looking and responding only at pure AI performance (and under certain specific circumstances) and not the overall situation between T34 and Sherman is exactly what lead all of us in this situation. USF balance is a failure at the moment and Scott-Path meta just the result of it.

Then you're a rare specie, nobody use Sherman on 2vs2 from top to average players.

You know this from all your experience in such matches?

P4s have better scatter which works better in that condition.

Eh, no they don't. Even the P4J has worse scatter than the HE Sherman. It has 6 scatter angle and 5.5 distance max compared to 6.5/5.54 max for the P4J and a significantly worse 7.5/6.4 for the P4H.

And the HE Sherman has a way better AOE profile on top of that with 15.6 AOE score vs 8.4 and 5.1.

Looking and responding only at pure AI performance (and under certain specific circumstances) and not the overall situation between T34 and Sherman is exactly what lead all of us in this situation. USF balance is a failure at the moment and Scott-Path meta just the result of it.

You always talk a lot of shit for someone who only plays one faction and isn't even highly ranked with it.

People were comparing the AI power of both vehicles, that's why I responded in regards to their AI power only.

USF is doing fine since the recent patches with 52/51/50/47% win ratios across all game modes respectively. The issue with balancing their 4v4 performance inherently comes down to the fact that Relic decided not to give them stock rocket arty, which is something we couldn't fix as we weren't allowed to put the Calliope in the basic roster. The commanders that bring heavy indirect (Priest, Calliope or Paths with Scotts) will always be meta because of this. UKF has the same exact issue.

* Sigh
Could people in this thread give a a good reason why this combine arm OP?.
Have you ever complain about Scott + path stat from pre Winter Balance Patch - February 26th 2021 to post patch ?
Or all of us just ranting because Helping Hand, Elpern team raped people by using one the oldest stat of USF on 4v4 tournament?.

from Winter Balance Patch - Feb 26th 2021:
Auto-fire range from 60 to 50
HE Barrage scatter max from 10 to 7
HE Barrage Damage from 100 to 80
HE Barrage AOE damage from 1/0.25/0.1 to 0.75/0.4/0.2
HE Barrage AOE distance from 1/2/3 to 0.75/2/4
HE Barrage Angle scatter from 7 to 6
HE Barrage shell count from 4 to 5
HE Barrage reload from 2.75/2.9 to 1.75/2.9
Barrage shells now use mortar explosion effects to distinguish them from auto-fire rounds.
Veterancy 2 scatter bonus now applies to the barrage instead of the unit's autofire
Smoke no longer shares a cooldown with the main barrage
Human Crush removed

To Summer balance patch - Sept 9th 2021:
The M8A1 has received boosts to its barrage's far AOE. This change increases the AOE radius and reduces the damage drop-off from 16 to 24.

Barrage AOE radius from 4 to 5
Barrage AOE Far damage from 0.2 to 0.3
Damage modifier against garrisons increased from 0.25 to 0.5

- get a little buff after an overnerf. Now, people gone wild because of this ?... Like, wtf ?.
Are there any new about Path + scott from the past and today ? No. It always the same.

Could people in this thread give a a good reason why this combine arm OP?.

Scott:
1) Unit is rather cheap population wise and resources wise, meaning that you can easily and quite early obtain it in critical mass
2) Unit doesnt have avarage firing range, meaning that unlike units like dozer\sturmtiger it effectively can stay out of danger all the time unless PaK43\JT\Ele is present
3) The only way to counter it without previously mentioned units - dive it. Which in itself is predictable move by the enemy.
4) Even if dived scott not only has relatively low targer size, but also is able to withstand 2 shots and on vet 1 has a smoke on top of it. Also it has faster speed then a standart medium, not to mention the fact that tanks tend to miss on the move.
5) When you add teammates like sov\ukf, you generally see mines being placed everywhere making diving even harder.
6) Scotts arent rocket arty, they lack alpha damage of rocket arty, but at the same time the fact they just auto-fire means that they will be bleeding you constantly.

Pathfinders:
1) In teamgames, pathfinder oppenings are supper effective because you can be supported by your teammate, allowing you to get forward ambu early.
2) In early game they are unchallenged by anything, unless enemy managed to get close to you and force you to retreat.
3) They vet relatively fast, meaning that by the time you get scotts they will most likely be vet 3, with nano-camo and one of the, if not the, best vision in the game. Allowing you to just afk in cover and let scotts just auto-fire with additional accuracy.

Basically its just very easy to execute and very hard to counter, if both opponents are playing on the same skill level.

People in this thread like to bring other cheesy strategies, but conveniently they are ignoring the fact that, other cheesy units\strats are actually requare you to be on the field within the reach of the enemy units. Pottentually exposing yourself and allowing enemy to counter attack\ambush or use the off-maps.

Get a 251 and reinforce in the front.

Also keep moving your teamweapons around and have units ahead of them to spot. Stormtroopers are very strong spotters with elite camo.

Thanks for the tip, I will experiment with it.

pathfinder + scott is a cancer strat.

its so strong and u dont need any skill. its a BS design of the 2 unit togehter.

save this with some AT and you will own mostly everthing

from Winter Balance Patch - Feb 26th 2021:
Auto-fire range from 60 to 50
HE Barrage scatter max from 10 to 7
HE Barrage Damage from 100 to 80
HE Barrage AOE damage from 1/0.25/0.1 to 0.75/0.4/0.2
HE Barrage AOE distance from 1/2/3 to 0.75/2/4
HE Barrage Angle scatter from 7 to 6
HE Barrage shell count from 4 to 5
HE Barrage reload from 2.75/2.9 to 1.75/2.9
Barrage shells now use mortar explosion effects to distinguish them from auto-fire rounds.
Veterancy 2 scatter bonus now applies to the barrage instead of the unit's autofire
Smoke no longer shares a cooldown with the main barrage
Human Crush removed

To Summer balance patch - Sept 9th 2021:
The M8A1 has received boosts to its barrage's far AOE. This change increases the AOE radius and reduces the damage drop-off from 16 to 24.

Barrage AOE radius from 4 to 5
Barrage AOE Far damage from 0.2 to 0.3
Damage modifier against garrisons increased from 0.25 to 0.5

- get a little buff after an overnerf. Now, people gone wild because of this ?... Like, wtf ?.
Are there any new about Path + scott from the past and today ? No. It always the same.

+1 for this

from Winter Balance Patch - Feb 26th 2021:
Auto-fire range from 60 to 50...

Basically compared to Winter patch we have now

Auto-fire range from 60 to 50
HE Barrage scatter max from 10 to 7
HE Barrage Damage from 100 to 80
HE Barrage AOE damage from 1/0.25/0.1 to 0.75/0.4/0.3
HE Barrage AOE distance from 1/2/3 to 0.75/2/5
HE Barrage Angle scatter from 7 to 6
HE Barrage shell count from 4 to 5
HE Barrage reload from 2.75/2.9 to 1.75/2.9
Damage modifier against garrisons increased from 0.25 to 0.5

Basically compared to Winter patch we have now

Auto-fire range from 60 to 50
HE Barrage scatter max from 10 to 7
HE Barrage Damage from 100 to 80
HE Barrage AOE damage from 1/0.25/0.1 to 0.75/0.4/0.3
HE Barrage AOE distance from 1/2/3 to 0.75/2/5
HE Barrage Angle scatter from 7 to 6
HE Barrage shell count from 4 to 5
HE Barrage reload from 2.75/2.9 to 1.75/2.9
Damage modifier against garrisons increased from 0.25 to 0.5

That mean it hit unit inside building harder, not in green/yellow cover harder you fool.
and from 0.2 to 0.3, 0.4 to 0.5. Everything stay in barrage which was harmless to inf blob, weapon spam and you think this is OP ?

That mean it hit unit inside building harder, not in green/yellow cover harder you fool

everything in bold is from September patch, Mr. Nice Guy

and from 0.2 to 0.3, 0.4 to 0.5. Everything stay in barrage which was harmless to inf blob, weapon spam and you think this is OP ?

Don't forget the far range from 3 to 5. It doesn't one shot now, but if spammed it deletes infantry. If you are not a "one screen - one army" player and not fast enough, your squads will die very fast from 2 or more Scotts.

here are exact numbers:
damage from 100/25/10 to 60/32/24
distance from 1/2/3 to 0.75/2/5

And please, stay polite. I did not insult you a single time.

"- get a little buff after an overnerf. Now, people gone wild because of this ?... Like, wtf ?.
Are there any new about Path + scott from the past and today ? No. It always the same."
I wrote this not for fun. How about dealing with OLD day scout with 60 range autofire, can loop shield over shotblocker and do 100 dmg barrage instead of 80 dmg ?.
Yet It still combine with path like today !!!. You cry a shit out when dealing with weaker scott and balanced path. How about Chad OP scott with old Path ?
Let me told you something funny. During Winter balance patch, Alot of good player complained about how OVernerf of M8 scott and demand M8 needed to be a barrage only unit. At summer patch the balance team gave a fucking little buff as a bandage.
Good god of USD, now it become OP ?. Changing 0.1 is so big, right ?

M8 scott, Pathfinder even Jdpanzer 4 thread have a same problem:
- IS this unit OP when it stand alone ?
- Is it OP due to the combination with another unit ? Why and proof ?
- Is it OP because of the natural invironment (1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4), teamwork, L2P, player habits and the stat go with it ?
- Is it breaking faction core design, game design like.. ahem, OPtruppen... ?
- IS there any Static number, correct data about how OP it is ?.
- Solution and shit happen before and after the buff, nerf, changing ?.