I don't trust the official balance team.

Forget about G43 for a second. PFs are 270MP 0CP unit, from the get go they are weaker then volks at all ranges and have slightly better DPS at longer ranges, dont have access to sandbags. Lack of mid\close range DPS (which is not exeptional on volks aswell) means that your best bet with PFs is to camp in cover without moving much and hope that if enemy will somehow charge you, you will be able to hold your ground.
Volks on the other hand while not having super close\mid range DPS, they can still deliver a punch if charged badly, they can construct green cover and they can force enemy out of cover. In other words, in situations where volks have problems PFs have x2 problems + their own problems.

This is all about early. PFs arent underpowered\bad unit, but in early game they are intentionally handycapped because they will get G43s and G43 is so powerfull because they are rather weak early for the price. See the idea behind their balance?

In 1v1 and somewhat in 2v2 its a significant disadvantages, in 3v3 and 4v4 its not. And thats the reason why they are problem in big teamgames and lesser problem in smaller games. Because the core idea behind them is not working for every gamemode.

Seriously, stop exaggerating how weak they are to start the game. I understand you said that ELITE players can overcome PF weak opening yet you also said no one would ever go PF only. Zaney just posted a match between Isuldur and IncaUna and went full PF build which traded well EARLY with Rifles. Despite the fact that they cant build cover, have worse DPS and cost more he held similar map which he then used to leverage a Flaktrak so he could cover and start to upgrade his units.

We are in agreement that the unit composition in regards to DPS is the issue(G43 models) but the argument that they start weak so they need to be strong later makes no sense. How long are they "weak" is it until they get the G43 upgrades? Is it when they get Vet? The unit can usually start upgrading at 5-6 mins from start of game. Even games can go from 20-60 mins so it spends a fraction of its time being weak and most of the time overperforming. If it is with Vet, all they have to do is join the horde and earn some easy Vet.

By the way the game is a fairly good watch up until MID/Late game. I think it shows how bad Rifle company scales along with the Stuart which I think has to do with lack of decent indirect.

Seriously, stop exaggerating how weak they are to start the game. I understand you said that ELITE players can overcome PF weak opening yet you also said no one would ever go PF only. Zaney just posted a match between Isuldur and IncaUna and went full PF build which traded well EARLY with Rifles. Despite the fact that they cant build cover, have worse DPS and cost more he held similar map which he then used to leverage a Flaktrak so he could cover and start to upgrade his units.

I'm not exaggerating how weak they are, I'm just stating that they are weaker then volks in early game with a lot of consequences for OKW player.
Speaking of game you mentioned, its not contradicts with what I was saying like at all. Isuldur went full PF oppening and had pretty much 0 map control, had to avoid fighting and had to blob his PFs early into the game untill his G43 started to appear and his support units came in, only after that he started slowly recover from full PF build.

but the argument that they start weak so they need to be strong later makes no sense. How long are they "weak" is it until they get the G43 upgrades?

Its not the argument its the fact of how balance team made them to begin with. And I said it multiple times, I'm not a fan of it either.

I'm not exaggerating how weak they are, I'm just stating that they are weaker then volks in early game with a lot of consequences for OKW player.
Speaking of game you mentioned, its not contradicts with what I was saying like at all. Isuldur went full PF oppening and had pretty much 0 map control, had to avoid fighting and had to blob his PFs early into the game untill his G43 started to appear and his support units came in, only after that he started slowly recover from full PF build.


Its not the argument its the fact of how balance team made them to begin with. And I said it multiple times, I'm not a fan of it either.

We must be talking about to different games. In the early game at about 2 1/2 mins the first big skirmish happens which is started by the 2 Rifleman squads attacking 1 PF squad which leads to both players blobbing their infantry to the center of the map with 3 Rifles vs 3 PF and Sturm with USF full retreat. Before the skirmish they had similar map and Isildur starting to decap. The next decent skirmish is at 3min40secs with 2 PF vs 2 Rifles and 1 RE, with PF retreating.

This must be the point that you are referring to. Now at almost 5 mins USF has made LT with MG on the way while OKW only had 4 units(3PF and 1 Sturm). No matter what units you have map control will be lost due to numbers.

At 5min 50secs the FlakTrak hits and the first G43 upgrades about 10 secs later with HMG on the way. He then wrestles control of the map back. At no point was loss of map due to underperformance of early PF. He took a risk and devoted his resources on early shock of Flak which makes sense due to how well it synergizes with PF.

Either way, I think we are in agreement that it is a bad design.

In 1v1 and somewhat in 2v2 its a significant disadvantages, in 3v3 and 4v4 its not. And thats the reason why they are problem in big teamgames and lesser problem in smaller games. Because the core idea behind them is not working for every gamemode.

Imo thats an idotic way to design a unit. We already have expensive late game vehicles and abilities that rarely get used in 1vs1 at all but are next to op at some 3vs3 / 4vs4 maps. We don't need infantry units behaving that way.

Forget about G43 for a second. PFs are 270MP 0CP unit, from the get go they are weaker then volks at all ranges and have slightly better DPS at longer ranges, dont have access to sandbags. Lack of mid\close range DPS (which is not exeptional on volks aswell) means that your best bet with PFs is to camp in cover without moving much and hope that if enemy will somehow charge you, you will be able to hold your ground.
Volks on the other hand while not having super close\mid range DPS, they can still deliver a punch if charged badly, they can construct green cover and they can force enemy out of cover. In other words, in situations where volks have problems PFs have x2 problems + their own problems.

This is all about early. PFs arent underpowered\bad unit, but in early game they are intentionally handycapped because they will get G43s and G43 is so powerfull because they are rather weak early for the price. See the idea behind their balance?

In 1v1 and somewhat in 2v2 its a significant disadvantages, in 3v3 and 4v4 its not. And thats the reason why they are problem in big teamgames and lesser problem in smaller games. Because the core idea behind them is not working for every gamemode.

You either bite the bullet for a later power spike or mix PFs with volks. This was done at all levels since the PF rework. Just look at old builds with old command Tiger. People would just get 2 volks and 1 PFs, depending on the situation, and then just stop building Voks all together.

Also the meta will change after the sandbag nerf, mark my words.

I have no idea why people are shitting on PFs being weak early. This is their whole shtick. This is how they were and how they probably stay. Because you can't have one of the best mainlines this early. Just take a look at Cons and how their SVT timing was nerfed, now g43 PFs have better timing then them.

You either bite the bullet for a later power spike or mix PFs with volks. This was done at all levels since the PF rework. Just look at old builds with old command Tiger. People would just get 2 volks and 1 PFs, depending on the situation, and then just stop building Voks all together.

Also the meta will change after the sandbag nerf, mark my words.

I have no idea why people are shitting on PFs being weak early. This is their whole shtick. This is how they were and how they probably stay. Because you can't have one of the best mainlines this early. Just take a look at Cons and how their SVT timing was nerfed, now g43 PFs have better timing then them.

I also don't know where this notion that PFs are weak early on comes from. It seems that PF DPS == Volks DPS and therefore, logically, PFs are bad because volks are bad? I don't get it. Volks/PFs win vs Rifles and Cons long range. Win vs Cons medium range as well. Lose long range to IS. That's a pretty good balance in terms of power, as the long range is the first fu***** range that you engage in. Volks don't teleport next to the enemy squad to then run away to fight long range. Rifles and Cons are pretty much forced to close into Volks, and that opens up so many avenues to take advantage.

I also don't know where this notion that PFs are weak early on comes from. It seems that PF DPS == Volks DPS

That's incorrect. AFAIK their close range DPS is substantially worse then Volk's, mid range is slighly worse and the long range is the same.

That's incorrect. AFAIK their close range DPS is substantially worse then Volk's, mid range is slighly worse and the long range is the same.

Yes, I know, but mid/long range is what matters for both volks and PFs. PFs can be weaker close range as much as they want compared to volks, both have shi* close range for that to not matter. It's like saying "You can choose between a sh** and tur* sandwich". Both are poo. If Rifles or Cons are close to PFs or Volks, you run away like it was a white rabbit

Yes, I know, but mid/long range is what matters for both volks and PFs. PFs can be weaker close range as much as they want compared to volks, both have shi* close range for that to not matter. It's like saying "You can choose between a sh** and tur* sandwich". Both are poo. If Rifles or Cons are close to PFs or Volks, you run away like it was a white rabbit

That's not the case iether. Volks win vs stock cons in cqc and have much higher chances at doing damage in cqc then at long range vs IS. Only Penals and Rifles are different story. Also imagine Rifles or Penals are charging at your PFs, while you have Volk's DPS only long range. Once they start approching mid range and CQC starts, the difference will be as big as Volks having chance at winning vs PFs retreating. Actually PF's close range DPS is so bad, that can be honestly compared to Con's.

I think both their weak peformance pre upgrade and their good performance post upgrade are exaggerated. Having no sandbag hurts more than a tiny bit less close range dmg early on. But i dont understand whats special about Pfussies later on. They are somewhat between 1 Bar Rifle and 2 Bar Rifle and almost exactly as good as Penals. Long range focused Squads like Guards, bren Sections, Paras, etc shit on them. 7men Cons behind sandbags are still unbeatable without Obers.

They bleed more than Volks, while having a bit more time until their powerspike is over compared to volks. I played some games vs Pfussies in 2vs2 and i struggeled against some things but this unit wasnt one of these. I dont think that Pfussie builds are much stronger than pure Volks builds. I rather have JLI/Falls than this overrated unit.

I think both their weak peformance pre upgrade and their good performance post upgrade are exaggerated. Having no sandbag hurts more than a tiny bit less close range dmg early on. But i dont understand whats special about Pfussies later on. They are somewhat between 1 Bar Rifle and 2 Bar Rifle and almost exactly as good as Penals. Long range focused Squads like Guards, bren Sections, Paras, etc shit on them. 7men Cons behind sandbags are still unbeatable without Obers.

They bleed more than Volks, while having a bit more time until their powerspike is over compared to volks. I played some games vs Pfussies in 2vs2 and i struggeled against some things but this unit wasnt one of these. I dont think that Pfussie builds are much stronger than pure Volks builds. I rather have JLI/Falls than this overrated unit.

Pfusies is a recon unit, share with grens the longest snare in the game and is free, have great dps on the move, great DPS retention with model drops, has insane health pool.

Penals can only shoot, satchel is very situational + they are bleed more and God forbit they don't have good support, or else they will make you MP bankrupt.

Rifles are all out combat with a delayed snare + have some tech costs. They are great at what they do, but they bleed a lot because of the their best range + same situation as with penals, the models are more expensive.

So PFs are good combat unit with great utility. Also I don't think they are that good in 2v2 though, just because the commanders are meh. JT is very map dependent and Tiger is meh in that mode.

Pfuss cost 270 and come with a snare, how much cost the snare in the price? 10, 20 manpower? Their price is accordingly to what they have. They're not weak for a 250 manpowerish unit, their vanilla cost include an utility.

Then for 80 munition, you get G43 that are much more equivalent to 2xBar which cost 120 munition, access to a grenade, increase squad +1 entity, +7 sight range and flares. They imo have the best cost effective package of all units in the game.

Their G43 are excellent on the move and the unit excel in murdering retreating squad. They definitively can go toe to toe with dual bar riflemen, the outcome will depend on the situation.

Cherry on the cake, the balance team wanted to buff their early game last patch.

My misread on that part, I thought it was about the G43 itself.

Why do you only point out the far DPS difference?
Their close moving DPS is 44% higher than Penals', I'd say this is pretty special, while retaining a vastly better DPS after model drops. But I'll move away from the Penal point since I don't see a reason to use Penals as a reference.
To the highlighted point: Normal squads in that function lose between 40-50% (sometimes even more) of their DPS across all ranges on the move. PFs lose 25-30% of their static DPS. Only Shocks achieve this, but even then only on the close range with heavier losses mid and far (not that these ranges really mattered, but still). But if we need a completely different class of units that is meant to do heavy damage close range which to justify PFs moving DPS, this should be a clear sign that PFs need changes, also regarding their DPS.

Phrase the issue as you want: Too high DPS concentration so that model drops are not punished, too high standard moving DPS: PFs do too much damage on the move for various reasons.


The claim was that balance team did not care enough if issues exist outside of high level games with taking PFs as an example (no one has seriously complained about Penals for quite a while now). While I agree that PFs have multiple issues, the comparison to Penals still does not make sense. Those squads, especially Penals, fight in completely different army compositions and even face different enemies.


Off topic from our discussion:

PFs need a REAL weakness. They literally are a complete squad. Acceptable static DPS at all ranges, good to very good moving DPS, very good DPS retention, grenade, snare, even a utility flare. Decent RA and reinforcement cost. The only "bad" thing about them is a relatively mediocre mid range DPS, but that is not an issue due to their mobility.
This squad needs more punishment for losing models. Afaik they have their own G43 version: Make it shittier but give them 4-5 of them. Or just nerf their RA, even if reinforcement costs have to get a bit cheaper. There must a some decision making for leaving cover and pushing in, but currently there is none. That's what makes them so blobbable.

My point is that "fixing" PF is not as simple as it presented and I dought that reducing the moving dps would fix them.
(as I pointed out the issue has more to do with the desing and less with performance)

Generally speaking Coh2 is complicated system and in complicated system the effects of even small changes can be amplified. I find most of the critism to mod team injust since balacing such a system is not easy.

Imo the main problem with balacing approach has to with what it seems as a lack of a balance desing ( strategy), the balance seem to focus more on band aids ( tactictal) then actual long term desing solution.

For instance snipers got an hp increase so that they do not get one shoted by mortars and then mortar damage was reduced so that can no longer one shoot while snipers retain their extra hp.

Their close moving DPS is 44% higher than Penals

Should be nerfed, OKW have Volksgrendadiers and Sturmpios to fill the game of close range DPS.

Take Whermacht for example, Grenadiers are great long range while Panzer Grenadiers excel at close range.
Panzerfusiliers should be the Grenadier equivalent, excell at long range but weak short range. Combined Arms should be used instead of the Spam one unit that owns everything.

PFs need a REAL weakness. They literally are a complete squad. Acceptable static DPS at all ranges, good to very good moving DPS, very good DPS retention, grenade, snare, even a utility flare. Decent RA and reinforcement cost. The only "bad" thing about them is a relatively mediocre mid range DPS, but that is not an issue due to their mobility.
This squad needs more punishment for losing models.

Agreed.

My point is that "fixing" PF is not as simple as it presented and I dought that reducing the moving dps would fix them.
(as I pointed out the issue has more to do with the desing and less with performance)

Can you come up with a redesign for them, i mean, seriously, it not likely the game with do that but im asking for ideal to use in my mod if possible.

Can you come up with a redesign for them, i mean, seriously, it not likely the game with do that but im asking for ideal to use in my mod if possible.

Sure and feel free to contact me via pm if you want suggestions for other units/abilities.

Concept, redesing as reckon support unit:

cost/pop lower than VG to make it easier to fit in Army composition

cp1 call in or build in hq at cp 0

starts as 5 men squad, upgrades with an officer

weapons 5g43 + luger upgradable to mp40

changes:
g43 with weapon profile suited for long range fight

flares replaced by new ability "servey battle field" timed ability with no cost where officer gets focused site using binoculars

new ability " fire at will" timed ability with mu cost where g43 fire faster or even suppress similar to RE. Ability scales with veterancy.

possibly replace grenade with a rifle grenade similar to gren.

other options:
smoke barrage
incinerate barrage
HE barrage

the is idea the unit should be more about utility and less about fighting power and relay more on abilities so that it does not replace mainline infatry.

Generally speaking mainline doctrinal unit seem dificult to balance since they need to be worth the extra slot without being op. Imo one's best is to go for a unit that provides a difrent play style but even that might be dificult to pull.

Sure and feel free to contact me via pm if you want suggestions for other units/abilities.

Concept, redesing as reckon support unit:

cost/pop lower than VG to make it easier to fit in Army composition

cp1 call in or build in hq at cp 0

starts as 5 men squad, upgrades with an officer

weapons 5g43 + luger upgradable to mp40

changes:
g43 with weapon profile suited for long range fight

flares replaced by new ability "servey battle field" timed ability with no cost where officer gets focused site using binoculars

new ability " fire at will" timed ability with mu cost where g43 fire faster or even suppress similar to RE. Ability scales with veterancy.

possibly replace grenade with a rifle grenade similar to gren.

other options:
smoke barrage
incinerate barrage
HE barrage

the is idea the unit should be more about utility and less about fighting power and relay more on abilities so that it does not replace mainline infatry.

Generally speaking mainline doctrinal unit seem dificult to balance since they need to be worth the extra slot without being op. Imo one's best is to go for a unit that provides a difrent play style but even that might be dificult to pull.

i will take these as reference, thank.

stuffs

And an other think. I remember long ago you made a post a bout standardise all infantry weapon range profile, back then im not yet into modding but now im trying to go for that concept but can find that post. So, i will want to hear your opinions on that subject again if you please.

i will take these as reference, thank.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/52782/suggested-improvements-to-small-arms-weapons/page/2

but remember this is an old post and some things might not apply any more

https://www.coh2.org/topic/60230/balancing-dropable-weapons

https://www.coh2.org/topic/84003/about-small-arm-and-relative-positioning/page/2

I also don't know where this notion that PFs are weak early on comes from. It seems that PF DPS == Volks DPS and therefore, logically, PFs are bad because volks are bad? I don't get it. Volks/PFs win vs Rifles and Cons long range. Win vs Cons medium range as well. Lose long range to IS. That's a pretty good balance in terms of power, as the long range is the first fu***** range that you engage in. Volks don't teleport next to the enemy squad to then run away to fight long range. Rifles and Cons are pretty much forced to close into Volks, and that opens up so many avenues to take advantage.

It comes from their literal stats.
Vanilla PFs have poor stats for their price tag. They don't even trade well vs Cons which are 240. They're 270mp but way weaker than Grenadiers long range and get shredded by IS, while having pitiful close range DPS so running up to IS doesn't work. They're like 6% better than Volks long range but 25% worse close range. Allied infantry need to pick their engagements with Volks but against PFs it's typically just run up and win. Riflemen and Cons just run up to Pfusiliers and rip them to shreds close range with like 200% the close range DPS.

You have to use your Sturmpio very well and your opponent has to misplay all the early engagements for you to survive a pure PF-opening. One game of an obscenely good player not getting rekt doesn't disprove the thousands of good to decent players who recognise that Pfusiliers early game is really bad. I do think the G43 package makes Pfusiliers way too good, but the people who insist that having one of the highest prices for a mainline and the worst starting combat stats somehow means they "aren't weak early game".