I don't trust the official balance team.

Roughly a month ago, someone on the official forum posted a thread(https://community.companyofheroes.com/coh-franchise/company-of-heroes-3/forums/1-general-discussion/threads/1429-please-do-away-with-second-class-players-for-coh-3?page=2) complaining the official balance team may ignore the balance of 4v4 and only focus on the 1v1. Days later, John from Relic's team posted this as a response.

But, take a look at what the latest patch for COH 2 has done. (Date is taken from https://coh2stats.com/stats?range=month&statsSource=top200&type=4v4&race=wermacht&timeStamp=1625097600, July 2021)
1v1, all players

1v1, top 200

4v4, all players

4v4, top 200


Since they said they had hired someone from the community to help them balance the game, I am seriously concerned if this is what they got. I am not going to preorder COH3 unless they can show what they said they would provide.

Hey just to clear some talking points up, you're worried about coh3 balance based on the coh2 balance team because they said they brought some members of the community in yes? If that's the case, it's quite probable that one of the balance team members is currently contributing to coh3 balance.

Nothing against the balance team or relic, but if we compare now to coh2 launch state, I'd take now. 3s and 4s currently axis is significantly easier to play but i'd wager it's pretty difficult to balance multiple gamemodes with an overseer essentially approving and denying what can be changed.

i disagree. the community balance team has done a decent job so far, considering the constraints they had to deal with, and hiring someone from the team goes to show that relic is willing to learn from their past mistakes. that alone gives me hope that the chaotic mess that was coh2 at launch won't repeat itself.

as for the good ol' 1v1 vs 4v4 balance discussion: while i do agree the game should be balanced across all game modes, 1v1 should (and always will) have priority. because, let's face it, this and maybe 2v2 is where the game is truly competitive and where it matters most.

i disagree. the community balance team has done a decent job so far, considering the constraints they had to deal with, and hiring someone from the team goes to show that relic is willing to learn from their past mistakes. that alone gives me hope that the chaotic mess that was coh2 at launch won't repeat itself.

as for the good ol' 1v1 vs 4v4 balance discussion: while i do agree the game should be balanced across all game modes, 1v1 should (and always will) have priority. because, let's face it, this and maybe 2v2 is where the game is truly competitive and where it matters most.

I am not here to argue if one mode is more competitive than the other. Since relic said, they are going to balance the game for ALL players and ALL game modes. They should, regardless of what, at least for a bit, achieve so.

You are correct. We are at a far better stage than what we had when the game was launched. But some game modes are still, indeed, imbalanced, and somehow they think they would just work it out in CoH 3 and claim that they will not ignore anyone. Give me a break.

Hey just to clear some talking points up, you're worried about coh3 balance based on the coh2 balance team because they said they brought some members of the community in yes? If that's the case, it's quite probable that one of the balance team members is currently contributing to coh3 balance.

Nothing against the balance team or relic, but if we compare now to coh2 launch state, I'd take now. 3s and 4s currently axis is significantly easier to play but i'd wager it's pretty difficult to balance multiple gamemodes with an overseer essentially approving and denying what can be changed.

You are correct. We are at a far better stage than what we had when the game was launched. I have made balance mods before, and I know how stupidly hard it is to balance around all game modes. And I believe the guys in the balance team have the same experiences.
But, since Relic claims they are going to balance ALL game modes for ALL players, they should, regardless of what, do so. I don't care if they are going to split the game apart and balance each one independently.

I am not here to argue if one mode is more competitive than the other. Since relic said, they are going to balance the game for ALL players and ALL game modes. They should, regardless of what, at least for a bit, achieve so.

You are correct. We are at a far better stage than what we had when the game was launched. But some game modes are still, indeed, imbalanced, and somehow they think they would just work it out in CoH 3 and claim that they will not ignore anyone. Give me a break.

i hear you, but frankly i don't think they leave the larger team modes in the dust on purpose or out of willful ignorance. at least for coh2 a lot of the difficulties in balancing all factions across all different game modes stems from the lack of proper means and conceptual limitations, such as the rigid resource system or incomplete faction rosters. i'm sure coh3 will see major improvements on that front, but we'll see.
in any case, having some community members on board should imho be seen as a very positive sign that balance for the whole playerbase is taken seriously - not the other way around.

I really hate when people just jump into some delusional statements without even basic understanding of the situation.

No offence but your post is wrong on so many levels, that its pointless to even wright everything.

Here is basic keypoints:

1) CoH2 from the release had problem with the balance because game was unfinished.
2) Whole strategic point system in coh2 was bad from the beggining, suitable only for 1v1\2v2 play.
3) All factions exept Wehr and Sov are designed like dog shit, from the beggining they were made unbalanced.
4) Relic had really shitty balance team behind coh2, which to put it lightly didnt even care about what community said regarding balance. If they thought something is good\balanced, even if its clearly not final word was on relic side.
5) During its life time, game had pretty much complete overhauls of few key systems. Like fire damage, tanks damage, inf damage and so on. In other words game was shiped with broken and unpolished mechanics.
6) During alpha tests of WFA and UKF Relic didnt even care about players feedback during the development, releasing 3 idiotic factions, which always are either too strong or too weak.
7) After half of the coh2 life time, relic said "fuck it" and abbandoned the ship, stopping any official support leaving all their fuck ups on the community balance team and still forcing restrictions on them.

Its a miracle that CoH2 even survived and was somewhat brought to the quality it has right now.

There is not a single reason to even bring CoH2 into a considiration or compare something from CoH2 when speaking about CoH3.

Because you are comparing mess of the game which whole lifespan could be discribed as a "try to cover all the holes" with a brand new game, developers of which are clearly listening to the community feedback now.

i hear you, but frankly i don't think they leave the larger team modes in the dust on purpose or out of willful ignorance. at least for coh2 a lot of the difficulties in balancing all factions across all different game modes stems from the lack of proper means and conceptual limitations, such as the rigid resource system or incomplete faction rosters. i'm sure coh3 will see major improvements on that front, but we'll see.
in any case, having some community members on board should imho be seen as a very positive sign that balance for the whole playerbase is taken seriously - not the other way around.

Let's hope miracles do happen. But so far, I see no hope. Especially since John posted that message not far from they released the June patch.

I really hate when people just jump into some delusional statements without even basic understanding of the situation.

No offence but your post is wrong on so many levels, that its pointless to even wright everything.

Here is basic keypoints:

1) CoH2 from the release had problem with the balance because game was unfinished.
2) Whole strategic point system in coh2 was bad from the beggining, suitable only for 1v1\2v2 play.
3) All factions exept Wehr and Sov are designed like dog shit, from the beggining they were made unbalanced.
4) Relic had really shitty balance team behind coh2, which to put it lightly didnt even care about what community said regarding balance. If they thought something is good\balanced, even if its clearly not final word was on relic side.
5) During its life time, game had pretty much complete overhauls of few key systems. Like fire damage, tanks damage, inf damage and so on. In other words game was shiped with broken and unpolished mechanics.
6) During alpha tests of WFA and UKF Relic didnt even care about players feedback during the development, releasing 3 idiotic factions, which always are either too strong or too weak.
7) After half of the coh2 life time, relic said "fuck it" and abbandoned the ship, stopping any official support leaving all their fuck ups on the community balance team and still forcing restrictions on them.

Its a miracle that CoH2 even survived and was somewhat brought to the quality it has right now.

There is not a single reason to even bring CoH2 into a considiration or compare something from CoH2 when speaking about CoH3.

Because you are comparing mess of the game which whole lifespan could be discribed as a "try to cover all the holes" with a brand new game, developers of which are clearly listening to the community feedback now.

Dude, I was not even trying to post something that contains multiple levels. But, if you say so, fine.

Here is the thing, before they released Dawn of War III, they also claimed they had shaped the game base on the fans' requests. And see what kind of trash they have pumped out. Also, for AoE 4, they have claimed the same things. One of my friends, who have spent thousands of hours on AoE 2, said that the game is still far from satisfactory, at least based on the trailers.

I was not expecting the game( CoH3) is going to be balanced around ALL game modes until they say so. And, regardless of what, they should not claim anything that is nearly impossible to achieve so. I don't know how many credits Relic remains in your mind, at least for me and all of my friends, they are no better than EA.

Here is the thing, before they released Dawn of War III, they also claimed they had shaped the game base on the fans' requests. And see what kind of trash they have pumped out.

This is lie, people asked for something simular to DoW-1 with elements from DoW-2. Both games have\had their player bases, while community was saying that DoW3 is gonna be shit the second Relic showed the gameplay. But it again was the case of "Managers at relic knows better then the community" and the game floped.

Thing is, alpha of CoH3 was nothing more then a "concept demo", meaning that litteraly nothing is ready like at all. Its an models\textures\asset mix without any finished content. Meaning that relic can collect feed back before factions are designed, before the balance is made, before mechanics are finished. This wasnt the case for vCoH\CoH2\DoW2\DoW3\AOE4

Thats the whole point.

Also, for AoE 4, they have claimed the same things. One of my friends, who have spent thousands of hours on AoE 2, said that the game is still far from satisfactory, at least based on the trailers.

Cant comment on that. I can only say that AoE2 has massive community and I'm not really sure that AoE4 would be so good it will force people to play it, rather then AoE2 since its a polished classic.

Shortly after release (1 year or so) the game was unplayable trash. Just play some of the single player stuff and you can tell. Even around 4 years ago the game was hardly playable.

For the past 2 years every patch there are 4 factions viable across most games modes, I'd take that any day.

And anyway I don't even think it's possible to balance the game across all game modes unless all stats and costs were adjusted based on game mode itself.

This is lie, people asked for something simular to DoW-1 with elements from DoW-2. Both games have\had their player bases, while community was saying that DoW3 is gonna be shit the second Relic showed the gameplay. But it again was the case of "Managers at relic knows better then the community" and the game floped.

Thing is, alpha of CoH3 was nothing more then a "concept demo", meaning that litteraly nothing is ready like at all. Its an models\textures\asset mix without any finished content. Meaning that relic can collect feed back before factions are designed, before the balance is made, before mechanics are finished. This wasnt the case for vCoH\CoH2\DoW2\DoW3\AOE4

Thats the whole point.


Cant comment on that. I can only say that AoE2 has massive community and I'm not really sure that AoE4 would be so good it will force people to play it, rather then AoE2 since its a polished classic.

I am not trying to argue with you. And you don't have to post any comments behind this.

I have never mentioned anything about CoH3 pre-alpha. What I am mad about is that John posted that comment right after the release of the June patch. I believe the timing was unintentional, but how the heck are they going to fix all the balance issues if the CoH 2 balance team indeed did sacrifice the balance of 4v4 to achieve a more balancing 1v1. 4v4 balance was not that bad a year ago. Axis had a slight lead in win rate but was not over 55%(top 200), same as the Allies did in 1v1, which instead had an advantage. The patch released earlier this year has already brought the win rate for the Axis around 60%(in 4v4). I was hoping the June patch could fix some of the issues, but it only worsened the situation. And then Relic is telling me they are hiring people from the community, which I assume are those belonging to the current CoH 2 balance team, to assist the balance in CoH3. Oh boy, I can't imagine how bad it will become.

I was hoping the June patch could fix some of the issues, but it only worsened the situation. And then Relic is telling me they are hiring people from the community, which I assume are those belonging to the current CoH 2 balance team, to assist the balance in CoH3. Oh boy, I can't imagine how bad it will become.

If the Current Balance Team is involved with COH 3 I will not buy it. Every time they release a patch something is game breaking broken, Fallshirmjaeger, Sector Assault, JLI, SturmTiger and notice how most of these things are Axis units and you rarely see something OP on Allies side.

Instead they release lame ass stuff for like the Easy-8.

I have never mentioned anything about CoH3 pre-alpha. What I am mad about is that John posted that comment right after the release of the June patch. I believe the timing was unintentional, but how the heck are they going to fix all the balance issues if the CoH 2 balance team indeed did sacrifice the balance of 4v4 to achieve a more balancing 1v1.

By not making game shitty to begin with. You missed my original post completly. CoH2 was shit from the beggining, it wasnt balaced on release, nor its completly balanced now.

For sure you cant balance the game across the gamemodes if your base game is unbalanced crap with shity designed factions to begin with.

CoH2 balance problems are not problems of wrong stats, coh2 balance problems comes from the rotten core of the game. If the CoH3 will be able to create good designed factions and the problems of the balance wont be based around "Well shit faction X need full rewamp in order to be playable" then there wont be any problem balancing game for all the gamemodes.

Also again, relic have nothing to do with coh2 balancing and it was impossible to balance coh2 around 4v4 at this point. Balance team chose to balance game around 1v1, just because there was no other options.

By not making game shitty to begin with. You missed my original post completly. CoH2 was shit from the beggining, it wasnt balaced on release, nor its completly balanced now.

For sure you cant balance the game across the gamemodes if your base game is unbalanced crap with shity designed factions to begin with.

CoH2 balance problems are not problems of wrong stats, coh2 balance problems comes from the rotten core of the game. If the CoH3 will be able to create good designed factions and the problems of the balance wont be based around "Well shit faction X need full rewamp in order to be playable" then there wont be any problem balancing game for all the gamemodes.

Also again, relic have nothing to do with coh2 balancing and it was impossible to balance coh2 around 4v4 at this point. Balance team chose to balance game around 1v1, just because there was no other options.

I think we have both missed some of the points we already said. I am not directly replying to your post because I have addressed almost all the issues previously.
Regardless, if you have faith in the CoH 3 balance, great, the team needs someone who would support it. After so many years of strong faith, hoping Relic would release a new game to fix the old issue, I always find myself disappointed.

i hear you, but frankly i don't think they leave the larger team modes in the dust on purpose or out of willful ignorance. at least for coh2 a lot of the difficulties in balancing all factions across all different game modes stems from the lack of proper means and conceptual limitations, such as the rigid resource system or incomplete faction rosters. i'm sure coh3 will see major improvements on that front, but we'll see.
in any case, having some community members on board should imho be seen as a very positive sign that balance for the whole playerbase is taken seriously - not the other way around.

Large part of balance issues on 4vs4 have nothing to do with 1vs1 but more with a certain ideology of gameplay. The balance team is unwilling to take the appropriate action because of the nevative impact it would have on a certain part of the player base.

Instead we still have OPstruppen roaming the field since a year or more.

4v4 balance was not that bad a year ago. Axis had a slight lead in win rate but was not over 55%(top 200), same as the Allies did in 1v1, which instead had an advantage. The patch released earlier this year has already brought the win rate for the Axis around 60%(in 4v4). I was hoping the June patch could fix some of the issues, but it only worsened the situation. And then Relic is telling me they are hiring people from the community, which I assume are those belonging to the current CoH 2 balance team, to assist the balance in CoH3. Oh boy, I can't imagine how bad it will become.

Where do you find this info? To my knowledge there was no stats site a year ago. The earliest of pagep's data is march this year.

However, to the point:
I agree that 4v4 balance is bad and that it probably worsened since march (from about 55 to 58-59% axis wins), I am reluctant though to blame only the balance team for it. If you look at the chosen commanders, you see a clear pattern: Ost, OKW and Soviets have a decent selection of commanders. UKF and USF however choose commanders with artillery or strong offmaps. This however is mostly Relics fault. They designed those factions shittily and probably did not allow core changes is that regard. Arty is crucial especially in 4v4. Both Axis factions have them stock, allowing them to get commanders to what they need. 2 out of 3 Allied factions don't, you pick the commander to cover your bare necessities rather than getting an actual strength.

I am not saying that the balance team did not make mistakes. Scott changes in my eyes were bad, the Scott should have been the late game arty replacement. USF AT changes were not fundamental enough either, leaving the faction not in any broken state, but just a boring one regarding AT.
Brita were... Well, to be honest I think without adding units this faction is beyond repair. In my eyes, the team did well with what they had, even if it is still unsatisfactory

The game should be balanced across all modes. Having that said one has to keep in mind that the complexity of balancing a system increases exponentially.

The problem with OP is that claim that game was balanced for 1vs1 at expense of balance in 4vs4 is simply unfounded.

There is very little to indicate that increasing the balance decreases the balance in 4vs4

The game should be balanced across all modes. Having that said one has to keep in mind that the complexity of balancing a system increases exponentially.

The problem with OP is that claim that game was balanced for 1vs1 at expense of balance in 4vs4 is simply unfounded.

There is very little to indicate that increasing the balance decreases the balance in 4vs4

I wouldn't say it is unfounded. Balance in 1v1 for the competitive scene had precedence in the first patches iirc. It doesn't mean that every change to 1v1 were bad or even affected 4v4 in the first place, but if those two modes were colliding then 1v1 was usually considered more important.


The point were OP's argumentation also falls a bit short is his comparison to one year ago. The balance was also community made back then. I don't know how many people have been exchanged within the balance team since then, but some have been there since Relic handed over. I vaguely remember a message about some new people replacing old ones, but I had the impression that many have stayed. so OP seems to not trust the team because the mostly same team did a better job back then? In this case it should be more a distrust in recent decisions.

Overall I found the becoming game more reliable to play over the last years. In some points a bit more boring, in others way mote interesting. At least for most modes and factions, we're away from 'abuse this one strat like hell and win' (ST not included).