Elite Mod COH - Download and Changelog

Mines are a great part of CoH though, so any changes done, PLEASE do them subtly. I think the idea of making minesweepers more effective is a good one, to start.

On snipers: Have you tried making their reacloak and movement speed slower? It will indirectly make all units more effective against them, and their counter even more so, without crippling the firepower itself (it also reduces the sniper's field presence).

If I may suggest another change for the future: Medic System overhaul. Zombie Grens always were a bit of an issue.

Elite Mod v1.1 has been released.
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New changes in v1.1 (18/11/13)

Haha, I'm glad to see that tank smoke got some love. I was thinking "ComputerHeat, you should really suggest changes to tank smoke. We've only seen it once in a replay, ever" and then "No! Everyone will think we're insane. Tank smoke is the Ability-That-Shall-Never-Be-Mentioned"

If this mod would get a special section in this site the numbers of players would increase drastically.

And a vet 3 riflemen being more expensive than a vet0 makes perfect sense, since the vet3 are terminators.

Btw: How about activating that 50cal on the croc. It sits there since 2006 unused.

I don't think the Puma was supposed to be the hard counter "anti-AB" unit. I think that happened more as a side effect of the RR-phase issue than because of design.

+1, especially when you consider all the many, many other things that can cause AB to die horribly.

I once had an idea for a unit (Sappers) when they would upgrade minesweepers they would grant 1.5x capping power, as it would make 'sense' minesweepers go explore and conquer enemy territories. Is just an idea. Throwing it out here.
You could also just lower costs, plain simple.
And .. * Sherman crab mine flail (activated) speed from 0.5x to 0.6x

And a vet 3 riflemen being more expensive than a vet0 makes perfect sense, since the vet3 are terminators.

Well not really, because you have the upkeep system for that. Having a squad alive a long time means it you payed manpower for it a long time aswell.

- Hellcat coaxial MG accuracy modifier against snipers fixed from 65 to 6.5

Should be 0.65x right?

- Snipers now have a negative zeal radius of 20 (same as pioneer antispam) where recived accuracy modified by 1.5x for each additional sniper

I still have some concerns:
*Are you sure, it only starts working on from the additional sniper? And thus it doesn't apply to the single sniper already?
*1.5x accuracy is a heck of a lot. It will change so many weapons into real snipereating machines; IF ONE GOES FOR MULTIPLE GROUPED SNIPERS.

Now what are the cases one goes grouped snipers;
- U have the abuse case, which they just blob 4/5 snipers on attack move; destroys any kind of infantry even countersnipers. This is the case which is too strong and needs nerfing. (I think Jeep buff is step in right direction, because an early powerful jeep on the field makes a Wehr player think twice if he really wants to start spamming snipers.)

- U also have the necessity case; The case where you are fighting a Vet 2 / 3 Grenblob; Snipers are arguably the most effective counter vs elite armor. And most of the times one is not going to cut it. A pair of them is a nice addition though... But what happens if the Wehr player supports his blob with ... a sniper. It suddenly becomes very easy for him to at least countersnipe one. Standard Kar98K rifles are also more effective vs the Snipers.
This case also goes the other way around. A couple of US Airborne Squads + Planes (more effective strafe) + a Sniper for back up. The Wehr Snipers should be somewhat a counter to the high health Airborne unit; but in this case; Recon + A Move = Dead Wehr Sniper.
I'm just like not to be found for the idea of (near) 100% countersnipes, I never was, we tested it on Beta before, it didn't work out too well. And I know it doesn't count for 1 Sniper, Sometimes there is just the NEED to have 2 on the field.
Again another one; Support vet strategies with flamer pios ... you just need dual snipers to be able to deal with certain armor types.
You can buff the mortar (at least small buff hopefully) and give Crocodiles smoke, but it just doesn't cut it.

That's why I was always a fan of keeping the snipers viable but less impactful:
*Making the Sniper and Grouped Snipers slightly less cost effective; by making their upkeep costs go up and the reinforce costs of their targets go down. + Fixing that damn Cooldown - Reload bug
*Buffing their counters which are not snipers (Jeeps, Bikes, KCH ...)

*(this one is a stretch/option) By encouraging teching (generally armor play would become more dominating => infantry battles slightly less important)

So what is this damned Reload 'bug' i've been talking about. You ever seen those cases where the sniper shoots after he shot 2 or 3 seconds ago? For The US Springfield this will happen after every 5 shots (the 6th shot), for the German G43 Sniper rifle this will happen every 11th shot (after every 10 shots).
Why? Because at those moments they RELOAD their clip of bullets without caring about cooldown. It's an easy fix to just increase their reloads a couple of seconds.

OMCG now more reliable, will not give both an MG and a mortar at once, higher odds of extra rifle or M8

(I would have liked a Quad in group 3 to be a possibility but this is not a necessity, just an idea.)

Just a question: how do the groups look like now?

I'm fine with all the 1.1 changes, but I would slow down a bit. It's really easy to decide something should change just by talking about it in a thread.

You want to focus in on the most important issues, and adding too many other changes can obscure the important ones and make them hard to playtest.

Obviously the #1 issue is Snipers and #2 is the Manpower war (Rifles vs Volks reinforce cost). I'd recommend actually getting some games in to see if these are the ideal fixes for those before getting too carried away buffing everything that's UP.

Agreed, but I think it's what he's doing, by focusing on the sniper and lower reinforce cost issue first. + Jeep change is going to be an interesting one. We can focus on the changes made.

ON THE OTHER HAND;
- Changes like lowering demo charge upgrade time shouldn't be that impactful though. I am certain it will not make baserushing suddenly OP broken.

I know, no OF. But how about a change to the Ammo Sdkfz from Pe?
200mp for a unit to lay mines is a joke.

I know, no OF. But how about a change to the Ammo Sdkfz from Pe?
200mp for a unit to lay mines is a joke.

It lays mines and reloads thread breakers in 1 second. I don't think this combination is a joke at all. Like Tommy said, nobody plays OF competitively, so why bother?

As if 1 person plays coh competitively.
There exists no prize money worth mentioning it.
sheople.

First 15 minutes you don't even have enough ammo to lay mines.
200mp reloads my treadbreaker. For 260 I get a whole new unit with treadbreaking ability.

As if 1 person plays coh competitively.
There exists no prize money worth mentioning it.
sheople.

First 15 minutes you don't even have enough ammo to lay mines.
200mp reloads my treadbreaker. For 260 I get a whole new unit with treadbreaking ability.

Not to mention the fact that they can kill engineers, mgs, mortars, and even sometimes countersnipe.

Also if we want to change OF, they will probably need a complete redisign.

Pumas would still be a decent counter to AB. Perhaps a softer one. For one thing they still can shoot the reinforcing AB out of the sky like pigeons.

They don't cost nearly as much as a RR AB squad (375 mp and 125 muni) and are still able to do serious damage to any infantry. And an unupgraded AB squad has 0 counters to a Puma.

I don't think the Puma was supposed to be the hard counter "anti-AB" unit. I think that happened more as a side effect of the RR-phase issue than because of design.

If RR's started hitting pumas more or less all the time (as they would, due to their low scatter) then no, it would drastically change the use of AB. Right now a sensible Wher player will build pumas to counter AB- this would no longer be the case.

And yes, it wasn't supposed to be like this- however it always has been like this, and therefore the game has been balanced around it. Bikes and jeeps aren't supposed to be able to push either, but the game's been balanced around it.

Mines are a great part of CoH though, so any changes done, PLEASE do them subtly. I think the idea of making minesweepers more effective is a good one, to start.

On snipers: Have you tried making their reacloak and movement speed slower? It will indirectly make all units more effective against them, and their counter even more so, without crippling the firepower itself (it also reduces the sniper's field presence).

If I may suggest another change for the future: Medic System overhaul. Zombie Grens always were a bit of an issue.

Naturally, any changes to mines will be discreet and likely will focus on methods of detection first.

Snipers: I've thought about it, but I'd rather not make the sniper an inherently weaker unit. Ideally, it should just be easier to counter, especially when used unsupported (even in high level COH, many players might just pair their sniper with a single rifle or volk and use that to single handedly push back an entire army).

There are no plans to change the medic system right now, it's not a balance concern. I'd like to be able to stop grens from being able to nade their own volks to make zombies, but besides that (and I don't think I can fix that without turning off FF) they will remain unchanged.

snip

I'm not a fan of introducing new units. I feel that would go against the objective of the mod, to enhance vCoH, by actually changing quite a large part of it.

Crab flail, yeah I guess it could be increased, but it is supposed to be a _mine_ flail, not a run-into-your-base-activate-squash-mode flail, so the slow speed does make some sense.

Good catch with the Hellcat, will fix next version.

Ok for the negative zeal, it's supposed to be powerful, but remember, only for grouped snipers, not single snipers, and not two snipers used at some distance away from each other. It does nothing to prevent players getting multiple snipers, but it does require them to use more micro to protect them.

1. Sniperspam case. If he has 4 snipers, that's 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 3.375 buff to accuracy for any weapon shooting at them. Take the Jeep for example- at medium range its accuracy is 0.4, so 0.4 x 3.375 = 1.35, which means 4 blobbed snipers will go down very, very quickly to a Jeep. As they should.

2. Grenblob case. In this case it's just a case of microing better. Split your snipers up rather than attack move blobbing them while kiting the grenblob, the principle is the same as always, but if you can't micro 2 snipers at once then there is a penalty, an axis sniper will have, instead of 0.5 accuracy (assuming your snipers are moving), 1.5 x 0.5 = 0.75 chance of hitting. So you're not guaranteed to lose your sniper(s), just more likely.

3. With recon, same again. A single sniper remains just as powerful as it ever was. 2 snipers remain just as powerful as they ever were. The only difference is, if you feel the need for multiple snipers, you need to micro more or face a penalty. That penalty isn't massively harsh in the case of double snipers- it's 75% chance of being countersniped instead of 50%. But it's a risk you choose to take.

Reload bug I can fix but some may see is as a feature.

Quad in OMCG I think would be too powerful. OMCG is already very powerful, I think this buff is enough, it just makes it less likely to give both a mortar and MG at once. So basically OMCG gives you either an M10/M18 or an ATG, then it gives you either an M8, M10/M18, ATG, mortar or MG, then it gives you either an M8 or a rifle (previously MGs and mortars were also in this group), then if you still have remaining MP allocated (because you got low manpower units before) then you get a spare rifle. So you can work out the groups from that, there are several possibilities.

Demo's I'll keep thinking about, been talking with Aimstrong about it and consdering whether just a very small buff to time taken would be better than halving the time, like 50 secs instead of 60. The timing in itself is a skill.

As if 1 person plays coh competitively.
There exists no prize money worth mentioning it.
sheople.

First 15 minutes you don't even have enough ammo to lay mines.
200mp reloads my treadbreaker. For 260 I get a whole new unit with treadbreaking ability.

I've already said I'm not changing OF stuff right now. When all the vCoH changes are in and I'm totally happy with them then I might consider moving on to OF, but it's not guaranteed, because it's just a total clusterfuck of balance. There's no point just adding 1 random change because you feel like it needs it, the approach has to be more precise than that.

Btw: How about activating that 50cal on the croc. It sits there since 2006 unused.

Just saw this. I think it would be quite fun to give the croc the 50 cal, I might try it and see. It's possible it would overbuff the croc but every time I think that, I just consider the fact that all it's good for is AI, and even that is done better by the regular Sherman...

Also, if I can get it working, just for giggles, I'll post a screenshot of a croc with mine flail, dozer and 50 cal

I'm not a fan of introducing new units. I feel that would go against the objective of the mod, to enhance vCoH, by actually changing quite a large part of it.

Hm? I think I never said somethign about new units? What new units we talking about here?

So basically OMCG gives you either an M10/M18 or an ATG, then it gives you either an M8, M10/M18, ATG, mortar or MG, then it gives you either an M8 or a rifle (previously MGs and mortars were also in this group)

Rangers? are still there right?

Demo's I'll keep thinking about, been talking with Aimstrong about it and consdering whether just a very small buff to time taken would be better than halving the time, like 50 secs instead of 60. The timing in itself is a skill.

No it's not a skill right now, but it's a gamble. You need to research it before you start flanking, if your flank fails, you just have researched demos for nothing. If you can research it when flanking, you'll see your either succesful or not, and you can still decide to cancel it. But 1 min is a very long time, which actually gives the Wehr enough time to get back on the field, and save his precious medic bunker.

Hm? I think I never said somethign about new units? What new units we talking about here?


Rangers? are still there right?



No it's not a skill right now, but it's a gamble. You need to research it before you start flanking, if your flank fails, you just have researched demos for nothing. If you can research it when flanking, you'll see your either succesful or not, and you can still decide to cancel it. But 1 min is a very long time, which actually gives the Wehr enough time to get back on the field, and save his precious medic bunker.

You said sappers, I thought you meant a new unit.

Yeah Rangers are still there in slot 2, forgot them.

Well, it's a risk yes. That's the risk you take by investing in it early on. I don't think the game would necessarily be better if everyone was running around demoing everything.

Lategame: Vet3 Rifles with 4 Bars rapes anything, not adequate.

Why not stop the BARs from dropping in the first place?

SG44's don't drop. G43s don't drop. MP40s and their analog, the Thompsons, don't drop.

LMGs drop, but they are a crewed weapon like the AT weapons and don't have an analog in the US doctrine (though their Brit analog, the Bren, does drop).

Letting Engis/Pios upgrade with both Flamers and Minesweepers would be pretty drastic, but successful.

Or you could increase the Mine detection range. Or make detected mines permanently visible.

My first reaction was don't touch the mine portion. It is one of those things that distinguishes noob/spam play from a modicum of skill.

But when I saw the above suggestions I thought "oohh. I like those ideas." Though I am more partial to the first than the second.

Regarding vehicle damage... Not sure about damage itself but high chance to crit the mobility should definitely be maintained. A bomb going off under your track or your tire is going to slow you down or stop you, even if it doesn't do a ton of damage. And it is one of the very few things you can use to stop/slow a spam of vetted Wehr tanks without having created a swarm of AT guns.

Why not stop the BARs from dropping in the first place?

SG44's don't drop. G43s don't drop. MP40s and their analog, the Thompsons, don't drop.

LMGs drop, but they are a crewed weapon like the AT weapons and don't have an analog in the US doctrine (though their Brit analog, the Bren, does drop).

Everybody loves picking up weapons, should be the other way around, but not too much

You said sappers, I thought you meant a new unit.

Yeah Rangers are still there in slot 2, forgot them.

Well, it's a risk yes. That's the risk you take by investing in it early on. I don't think the game would necessarily be better if everyone was running around demoing everything.

I just had that idea for the British minesweeper unit. But you could also make it apply to Wehr and US minesweeper upgrade. (increase cap speed) I never intended making a new unit.

.. you wouldn't demo everything. That would happen already, it's about the moment you flank, you don't know from ahead if you will have a chance to use your demos. So you need to upgrade it before you flank. Like if you can use it, it's all fine. But if you aren't able to use them u threw away 100mp30fuel, Which after a fail flank might be the final nail in your coffin.

if you can remove the blowlands and wrecked train map from existence I would be most grateful.