USF Pathfinders need to be balanced
10 Nov 2021, 14:23 PM
#121
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
Pathfinder CD is pretty much the same as riflemen building delay + time to effectively reach the battlefield. I don't know how you could increase it even more and call it balance.
11 Nov 2021, 00:36 AM
#122
Posts: 919
Kind of, those Elite units need to vet up first to beat down Pathfinder with bars. Since Pathfinders vet pretty quickly compared to other squads fighting a Vet3 double Bar with say a PG ain't the best idea unless you catch them out of position. The increased damage along with the native crit chance can cause a otherwise decent engagement to go sideways.
After you invested 120mun into 2x bar you better should win vs a PG squad without any mun spended. PGs are an early game unit, not a late game elite. Anything else really would be hilarious.
11 Nov 2021, 01:47 AM
#123
Posts: 682
the one and only reason why JLI cant replace volks completely is because JLI are cp1, okw players can and will cease making volks and spam JLI as soon as cp1 is reached
This must come from your vast experience as okw
/s
11 Nov 2021, 02:08 AM
#124
Posts: 307
the one and only reason why JLI cant replace volks completely is because JLI are cp1, okw players can and will cease making volks and spam JLI as soon as cp1 is reached
hehe, but there are some stat that help OKW get 2-3 JLI on the field and clubing alies
11 Nov 2021, 02:43 AM
#125
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
Pathfinder CD is pretty much the same as riflemen building delay + time to effectively reach the battlefield. I don't know how you could increase it even more and call it balance.
I guess this (the bold part) is exactly his point. Increasing the cooldown on the PF call-in would make it way less feasible to just spam them and force you into a more diverse unit composition. Since people seem to more or less unequivocally agree that the raw combat stats for PF are not a problem, I'd say this is could indeed be a good balance approach
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11 Nov 2021, 05:35 AM
#126
Posts: 960
Not going to read the entire thread, but the only issue I've noticed with Paths is the exp/vet ratio. They don't give much exp per model, but they vet up incredibly quickly - I've seen vet 2 within a few minutes.
If they hit vet 2 early, which they often do, it's quite easy to snowball into a stronger build; and due to the vet 2 bonuses (RoF, RA, passive healing), they can maintain a large MP drain that can be tricky to get out of. Other than that, Paths are fine (although boring to play against/as).
Slow down Vet gain (or increase exp rewards), and they'll be pretty much inline with every other unit in the game.
If they hit vet 2 early, which they often do, it's quite easy to snowball into a stronger build; and due to the vet 2 bonuses (RoF, RA, passive healing), they can maintain a large MP drain that can be tricky to get out of. Other than that, Paths are fine (although boring to play against/as).
Slow down Vet gain (or increase exp rewards), and they'll be pretty much inline with every other unit in the game.
Opinions reflect all team modes (not 1v1)
I often edit my posts several times after posting
I often edit my posts several times after posting
11 Nov 2021, 07:39 AM
#127
Posts: 307
Not going to read the entire thread, but the only issue I've noticed with Paths is the exp/vet ratio. They don't give much exp per model, but they vet up incredibly quickly - I've seen vet 2 within a few minutes.
If they hit vet 2 early, which they often do, it's quite easy to snowball into a stronger build; and due to the vet 2 bonuses (RoF, RA, passive healing), they can maintain a large MP drain that can be tricky to get out of. Other than that, Paths are fine (although boring to play against/as).
Slow down Vet gain (or increase exp rewards), and they'll be pretty much inline with every other unit in the game.
path didn't have passive healing in vet 2.
to be fair, as long as you can break LOS and closing in/ forcus fire Path, you win the game.
11 Nov 2021, 11:35 AM
#128
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
I guess this (the bold part) is exactly his point. Increasing the cooldown on the PF call-in would make it way less feasible to just spam them and force you into a more diverse unit composition. Since people seem to more or less unequivocally agree that the raw combat stats for PF are not a problem, I'd say this is could indeed be a good balance approach
Then how is it a spam? They literally already take longer to field than riflemen. Just to remind you that also Reco's PF already have longer CD than Airborn's one because they're see as better version early game with 1 less sniper rifle.
Should they get the same CD even if they're individually weaker? Or even bigger CD because you still can do 3xPF or 4xPF with Reco, you'll just have a slower start.
11 Nov 2021, 14:24 PM
#129
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Regardless of any issues with pathfinder themselves there seem to be issues with early USF mortar/ambulance that provide great synergy with Pathfinder vision in large modes where one can build these unit early. In a way that amplifies any issues that Pathfinders might create in the early game.
Trying to attack the blob around the ambulance can be very tricky in early game while the mortar can apply pressure to important areas.
Trying to attack the blob around the ambulance can be very tricky in early game while the mortar can apply pressure to important areas.
11 Nov 2021, 14:27 PM
#130
Posts: 87
Please, Stop Trying to Bury USF's All Cards. Pathfinder is Clearly not OP and underpowered as its cheap as its Pop Cap and have Low Veterancy grow Not Like JLI.
11 Nov 2021, 15:26 PM
#131
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I would suggest that people keep JLI out of these debate.
JLI might or might not be OP but that has very little to do with Pathfinders balance and performance.
JLI might or might not be OP but that has very little to do with Pathfinders balance and performance.
11 Nov 2021, 16:14 PM
#132
Posts: 786 | Subs: 1
This must come from your vast experience as okw
im sorry I havent played 3000 matches as oberkommando west to have an opinion on the faction that i almost always meet in the game and can see the exact playstyles/unit compositions that the average okw player makes
the coh2.org forum experience:
11 Nov 2021, 16:18 PM
#133
Posts: 786 | Subs: 1
hehe, but there are some stat that help OKW get 2-3 JLI on the field and clubing alies
no need to as you can go pfusiliers and have competent infantry throughout the entire game (after you upgrade them at minute 5)
the coh2.org forum experience:
11 Nov 2021, 19:04 PM
#134
Posts: 919
Regardless of any issues with pathfinder themselves there seem to be issues with early USF mortar/ambulance that provide great synergy with Pathfinder vision in large modes where one can build these unit early.
I do think that is part of the reason that USF mortar is overall the worst source of indirect fire of all factions. They better have a somehow strong early game (in combination with pathfinders) to justify their existence.
Blobbing of units is always bad for gameplay. I have to admit this is something new, I saw blobs of pretty much anything that has legs but I never saw someone blobbing USF mortars.
11 Nov 2021, 22:39 PM
#135
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I do think that is part of the reason that USF mortar is overall the worst source of indirect fire of all factions. They better have a somehow strong early game (in combination with pathfinders) to justify their existence.
That does not mean that USF mortar is actually bad. It performance is quite close to other mortar and with sight from Pathfinders it probably perform as good if not better than other mortars.
Blobbing of units is always bad for gameplay. I have to admit this is something new, I saw blobs of pretty much anything that has legs but I never saw someone blobbing USF mortars.
I did no mean spamming mortars, but blobbing units around an early ambulance so one can not attack the position early.
11 Nov 2021, 22:58 PM
#136
Posts: 919
That does not mean that USF mortar is actually bad. It performance is quite close to other mortar and with sight from Pathfinders it probably perform as good if not better than other mortars.
Not bad, just worse than others. Quickly gets outperformed by other means of indirect fire including the USF Howitzer for the same faction. The combination of worse game stats and the absence of an Vet1 ability that is useful later on means you don't want to preserve them the whole game.
You want to use 1-2 soviet mortars the whole game for vision alone for example even if you went for 120mm mortar later on.
USF mortar is a good smoke source for early game, especially with vet1.
I did no mean spamming mortars, but blobbing units around an early ambulance so one can not attack the position early.
Good to clarify that one. I do think that is the reason the ambulance itself is so fragile and slow. Good players destroy it first if they can get a shot at it.
12 Nov 2021, 00:04 AM
#137
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
...
Point here is that the combination of sight from pathfinder, mortar and ambulance is very hard to counter in early game (in large modes games.)
One will bleed heavily fighting vs units that can refresh.
12 Nov 2021, 00:56 AM
#138
Posts: 307
what do you expect from USF nature ?. Snowball, aggressive pushing with ambulance ?.
and again, why bring ambu and mortar to Path/M8 scott thread ?.
Another nerf ambu, mortar just for path-M8 build ?
and again, why bring ambu and mortar to Path/M8 scott thread ?.
Another nerf ambu, mortar just for path-M8 build ?
13 Nov 2021, 15:01 PM
#139
Posts: 658
Actually Pathfinders aren't super OP stat-wise.
But it's too easy to completely replace Riflemen with them, compared to JLI for Volks or PF for Volks. Increasing the time between call-ins would pretty much fix this issue.
Pathfinders literally do no damage until you get Bars.
If you make 0 Rifleman that is a quick way to get pushed off the field by OKW.
21 Nov 2021, 03:15 AM
#140
Posts: 157
Pathfinders are only OP once they started blobbing with other units like LMG para.
solo pathfinders with bars arent really that good.
the problem isnt inherently from the pathfinders, but blobbing and focus fire in general
solo pathfinders with bars arent really that good.
the problem isnt inherently from the pathfinders, but blobbing and focus fire in general
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