Jagdtigers AE ability is broken, change my mind...

Unlocks at vet 0 and specificaly counters the counter to a heavy TD, AT guns, not only that it give it more useability that just being an AT tank and a waste if the enemy doesn't build tanks.

If anything, anything at all it needs locking behind vet.

Isn't the counter to Heavy TDs isolating them with artillery and killing them off with flanking mediums or TDs of your own ? I mean, sure AT guns are fine if they are able to penetrate it frontally somehow.

change my mind.....
sounds like your mind is already made set?

Isn't the counter to Heavy TDs isolating them with artillery and killing them off with flanking mediums or TDs of your own ? I mean, sure AT guns are fine if they are able to penetrate it frontally somehow.

On paper, yes. Easier said than done. Especially if playing as USF. If you pick a doctrine without planes or offmap, there is no way in hell you are isolating an Ele or Jagd. Soviets can build katyushas to remove all supporting weapons from the ele and then charge in with a satchel penal or a RAM and finish it off. Brits... very hard. Without proper doctrines, I've only ever managed to isolate a super heavy TD with base arty + 2x vetted comets going behind it. And ofc as I play 3v3, that wasn't only me committing units to kill it (usually we beg the soviet player to katyusha behind ele as we push in. If no soviet player. gg)

The only AT gun that could actually be defined as a JT counter would the the 17lb.and lucky for the JT it's one of the only units in the entire game less mobile than it...

Unlocks at vet 0 and specificaly counters the counter to a heavy TD, AT guns, not only that it give it more useability that just being an AT tank and a waste if the enemy doesn't build tanks.

If anything, anything at all it needs locking behind vet.

Neither the ISU nor the Jagdtiger should really have HE abilities. Heavy TDs should be very specialised to fighting other armoured vehicles, not having a mulligan to be able to effectively counter any given unit.

At least in the case of the Jagdtiger it's a munitions-costing ability that barrages a single given point, though, so I'd agree that making it a Vet ability again (and giving the ISU the same treatment: Make its HE shell a targeted vet ability too, and bump its range back up to 70) would be a good idea, and would probably make it rather more balanced while retaining this design decision.

Snip

Agree, it's too powerful for a vet 0 ability.

Neither the ISU nor the Jagdtiger should really have HE abilities. Heavy TDs should be very specialised to fighting other armoured vehicles, not having a mulligan to be able to effectively counter any given unit.

At least in the case of the Jagdtiger it's a munitions-costing ability that barrages a single given point, though, so I'd agree that making it a Vet ability again (and giving the ISU the same treatment: Make its HE shell a targeted vet ability too, and bump its range back up to 70) would be a good idea, and would probably make it rather more balanced while retaining this design decision.

Making the JT ability vet 1 would be good and would not affect anything else. The ISU-152 however, would then need a buff in AT penetration, damage, frontal armour. Not to mention you need to balance it around the faction itself. While OKW has premium stock tanks, soviets have none. Neither do they have the all or nothing wipe machine, but rather a semi wipe/semi area denial machine. The current implementation of the HE range 60 is fine. A big nerf sure, but a needed one.

It isn't broken, it works as intended.

If you don't like it, you can always reposition your AT guns or not stack them. It uses a lot of ammo, just like the ZIS barrage, which is also a vet 0 ability.

85 minute game... I think my shoulder would give out before I could finish that 😂

It isn't broken, it works as intended.

If you don't like it, you can always reposition your AT guns or not stack them. It uses a lot of ammo, just like the ZIS barrage, which is also a vet 0 ability.

113 kills on a AT tank, enough said. Zis barrage should ideally bet behind vet aswell but a squishy AT gun != a heavy TD.

You can indeed reposition your AT guns but there is a huge chance that the first shot will drop modesl and do HP damage, so you don't reposition them, you have to reinforce/heal/repair them which takes them out of the battle. There is no need for it to have this ability, and definatley not at vet 0.

If you have chosen to go a heavy TD to counter tanks, you shoud have to sacrifice that tanks ability to fight infantry, regardles of a small muni cost. If the FF tulip rockets killed infantry, im sure you would feel the same way, no?

Jagd AOE profile:
AOE Radius
1.5
Distance near
0.375
Distance mid
0.75
Distance far
1.125
Damage near
300
Damage mid
45
Damage far
15
80 DMG distance
0.7

Compared to a Panther:
AOE Radius
0.5
Distance near
0.15
Distance mid
0.2
Distance far
0.25
Damage near
160
Damage mid
24
Damage far
8
80 DMG distance
0.18

Even without the ability, it is decent enough vs infantry.

300 damage per shot.
500+ penetration
70 range

Jagd ability buffs the AOE, reduces damage to 160 (pen same). It's a great ability. Not to mention that jagd shoots one seconds slower at vet0, but 1.5 seconds quicker than the Firefly at vet3 (6 vs 4.5).

I think that jagd is pretty OP. Don't know if it's too OP. It's definitely one of the better tanks in COH2. Decent vs infantry. Long range. Brutal vs tanks.

EDIT: Taken from https://coh2.serealia.ca/#147

EDIT2: I wouldn't count on any nerfs from the balance team. Sturm and his lackeys will have a bit tougher time playing axis in teamgames.

Jagd AOE profile:
AOE Radius
1.5
Distance near
0.375
Distance mid
0.75
Distance far
1.125
Damage near
300
Damage mid
45
Damage far
15
80 DMG distance
0.7

Compared to a Panther:
AOE Radius
0.5
Distance near
0.15
Distance mid
0.2
Distance far
0.25
Damage near
160
Damage mid
24
Damage far
8
80 DMG distance
0.18

Even without the ability, it is decent enough vs infantry.

I mean, the difference there would be that the Panther is much cheaper than the Jagdtiger in every way, and also has the benefit of its' three MGs. Also that the panther fires its' cannon rather faster than the Jagdtiger.

Is comparing the Jagdtiger's main cannon to the Panthers' and calling it "decent enough vs infantry" because it beats the Panther's cannon really all that fair/realistic a comparison? The ISU's AP cannon is also significantly better than the Panther's at fighting infantry, but I'd hardly try and argue that it's a legitimate use of the thing.

Making the JT ability vet 1 would be good and would not affect anything else. The ISU-152 however, would then need a buff in AT penetration, damage, frontal armour. Not to mention you need to balance it around the faction itself. While OKW has premium stock tanks, soviets have none. Neither do they have the all or nothing wipe machine, but rather a semi wipe/semi area denial machine. The current implementation of the HE range 60 is fine. A big nerf sure, but a needed one.

I wouldn't be opposed to improving the ISU's stats if it were changed to be a "real" heavy TD rather than what is at the moment... though It's probably worth mentioning that the ISU does have deflection damage, even on the "AP" round, apparently, so not penetrating an enemy tank isnt quite as punishing as one might think.

It's fair to say that the two armies are rather different, though i'd hardly call the Katyusha not a "Wipe Machine". We could probably go back and forth trying to compare the two armies (I'd immediately point to SOV's better stock access to AI vehicles/tools), but I'm not sure that it's necessary.

85 minute game... I think my shoulder would give out before I could finish that 😂

If you play 4v4 randoms, you have to expect those to happen sometimes. This was on Hill 400 where I had to fight over the mid while players on both sides wanted an arty fest. Considering the number of Katy or Calliope rounds I took, it felt fine that my JT got over 100 kills. I used the JT barrage to keep them from capping mid while they used their rocket arty to keep me from capping. Eventually I capped it enough to tick down the VP's.

BTW - it's games like that one that make me want arty of any type to not be decrewed or abandoned and a hard cap of 2. When I look up from the scrum in the middle, where it feels like I've been fighting 1v2 for the last 30 minutes, when I see half of some of my teammates pop cap is in arty, it's hard not to get pissed. I then understand why it feels like I've been fighting 1v2. If you watch the replay in the Arty Rant, you'll see the same thing. It's the same when I play allies, look back, and see my teammate running around with 3 Katy's. I then start hoping for the Puma........

Lastly, I've tried diving with the JT and using the barrage to push around AT guns. It doesn't work in a 4v4 as there is always too much AT around. After having both used the ability and fought against it, it really doesn't seem OP.

I mean, the difference there would be that the Panther is much cheaper than the Jagdtiger in every way, and also has the benefit of its' three MGs. Also that the panther fires its' cannon rather faster than the Jagdtiger.

Is comparing the Jagdtiger's main cannon to the Panthers' and calling it "decent enough vs infantry" because it beats the Panther's cannon really all that fair/realistic a comparison? The ISU's AP cannon is also significantly better than the Panther's at fighting infantry, but I'd hardly try and argue that it's a legitimate use of the thing.




I wouldn't be opposed to improving the ISU's stats if it were changed to be a "real" heavy TD rather than what is at the moment... though It's probably worth mentioning that the ISU does have deflection damage, even on the "AP" round, apparently, so not penetrating an enemy tank isnt quite as punishing as one might think.

It's fair to say that the two armies are rather different, though i'd hardly call the Katyusha not a "Wipe Machine". We could probably go back and forth trying to compare the two armies (I'd immediately point to SOV's better stock access to AI vehicles/tools), but I'm not sure that it's necessary.

I only used Panther's AOE profile as an example of a TD profile. You can use Jackson, Firefly, SU85. Doesn't really matter. I used Panther because it's an Axis tank and it's in OKW.
About the "price" argument. I mean, elefant is also pricey but it's not anywhere close to being Jagdtiger level in AI with it's cannon (0.5 AOE).

And if you do want to compare it to the Panthers... jagd can snipe models from a distance. 70 range. Doesn't really have to change any shells or anything, and has the ability to really put the hurt on fleshy peeps. Sure it's not HE ISU152, but still decent enough, considering the 300/500 damage/penetration.

Yeah, ISU has deflection damage but even though it's not as punishing, considering the usual values of HP are somewhat in a hexadecimal system (base 16 --> 160). The 120 damage means --> 120/16 = 7.5 --> 8 "hits".

Still, better than 0, especially if the tank is low and has been snared, I agree.

Well I've broadly classified is a semi-wipe machine. Definitely not as wipe-y as werfer or stuka but has that other bonus then... the duration.
Stuka lands and that's it. If you were unlucky enough or the stuka player "guessed" where you would dodge or something like that... Goodnight. Katyusha doesn't have that, but then again, has the "if you don't retreat from this position, you will suffer". If you're unlucky enough to be in smack center of the area, then you can't really dodge anything. Radial symmetry forbids you, so you retreat.
That's my take on the rocket arty.

Point is. It's stock. Displacing anything from the elefant/jagd is not easy if you don't have katyusha or DOCTRINAL calliope/LM. USF suffers here the most. I mostly play USF in competitive and I know first hand how cancerous it is to play against a good OKW opponent. Early game kubel with double spios can easily lock you out on most 3v3 maps and then late game KT or Jagd or both with obers and a stuka is super cancerous to play against. Similar on how cancerous it is to play vs HE ISU152.

You're minding your own business, capping a point uncontested with a squad. Boom, it's wiped from 100 range by a jagd (supporting fire is, according to seralia, 25-125 although I've never actually seen anyone shoot from 125 range). Lost countless rangers to one jagd shot. Especially as the late game terrain is quite crater-y and the squads tend to bunch up in one crater, allowing easy wipes. And if it's not wiped by the supporting fire, a direct hit will take a hefty amount of HP. Again, not ISU152 levels, but definitely not something to ignore.

EDIT: Now that I think of it. I'm dumb. I should have compared it directly to elefant AOE profile only and avoid any confusion. My bad.

I only used Panther's AOE profile as an example of a TD profile. You can use Jackson, Firefly, SU85. Doesn't really matter. I used Panther because it's an Axis tank and it's in OKW.
About the "price" argument. I mean, elefant is also pricey but it's not anywhere close to being Jagdtiger level in AI with it's cannon (0.5 AOE).

And if you do want to compare it to the Panthers... jagd can snipe models from a distance. 70 range. Doesn't really have to change any shells or anything, and has the ability to really put the hurt on fleshy peeps. Sure it's not HE ISU152, but still decent enough, considering the 300/500 damage/penetration.

Yeah, ISU has deflection damage but even though it's not as punishing, considering the usual values of HP are somewhat in a hexadecimal system (base 16 --> 160). The 120 damage means --> 120/16 = 7.5 --> 8 "hits".

Still, better than 0, especially if the tank is low and has been snared, I agree.

Well I've broadly classified is a semi-wipe machine. Definitely not as wipe-y as werfer or stuka but has that other bonus then... the duration.
Stuka lands and that's it. If you were unlucky enough or the stuka player "guessed" where you would dodge or something like that... Goodnight. Katyusha doesn't have that, but then again, has the "if you don't retreat from this position, you will suffer". If you're unlucky enough to be in smack center of the area, then you can't really dodge anything. Radial symmetry forbids you, so you retreat.
That's my take on the rocket arty.

Point is. It's stock. Displacing anything from the elefant/jagd is not easy if you don't have katyusha or DOCTRINAL calliope/LM. USF suffers here the most. I mostly play USF in competitive and I know first hand how cancerous it is to play against a good OKW opponent. Early game kubel with double spios can easily lock you out on most 3v3 maps and then late game KT or Jagd or both with obers and a stuka is super cancerous to play against. Similar on how cancerous it is to play vs HE ISU152.

You're minding your own business, capping a point uncontested with a squad. Boom, it's wiped from 100 range by a jagd (supporting fire is, according to seralia, 25-125 although I've never actually seen anyone shoot from 125 range). Lost countless rangers to one jagd shot. Especially as the late game terrain is quite crater-y and the squads tend to bunch up in one crater, allowing easy wipes. And if it's not wiped by the supporting fire, a direct hit will take a hefty amount of HP. Again, not ISU152 levels, but definitely not something to ignore.

EDIT: Now that I think of it. I'm dumb. I should have compared it directly to elefant AOE profile only and avoid any confusion. My bad.

Taking about AOE without taking into account scatter does not really say much.

I suggest you play a game using the autofire of the JT to fire on infatry and see how many you can kill or asking MMX to run a simulation for you.