Volks mp40 vs stg44 vs no update

What do you think is the means of choice once the appropriate commander has been elected? Most recommendations go in the direction of mixing. Not only 3-4 MP40 Volks. When the time comes to decide, my impression is that it is best to take MP40 or no update at all and stay on Range. I do not find STG44 effective near, medium or far. What is your experience? (only play 2v2).

The STG is an upgrade at literally all ranges. DPS wise there is no reason not to take it, even if you want to go for long range fights.

I never found the MP40s worth it. Even current PPSh Conscripts usually win and with the added PPSh will win decently.

Volks with STGs are not as efficient anymore as they used to be 2 years ago, but they are not a bad squad either. They're just not special. Since OKW lacks a specialized AI vehicle in the late game, replacing at least one Volks with Obers is usually a good idea.

That's true. STG44 probably works best against Sov. But how is it against British endgame. This is where STG volks are swept away. In my experience, I was able to win a lot of fights with the MP40 (except Commandos).
Against USF it depends on which armament you fight.

Regarding STG Volks:
- against Riflemen, you can only fight from cover. Rifles with BARs are basically beefed up Volks, especially at close range. You need some other AI source against USF, like Obersoldaten or relying on tanks.
- against IS, you need to get to short range, but if you are caught on an open field it is not worth closing in. Rather go for dover or disengage (which is fairly easy vs Brits since their LMGs do not fire on the move).
- against Conscripts, the fight is fairly even.

The biggest "advantage" of Volks vs Conscripts and IS is that they cost less POP. You might not necessarily win the fight itself, but if your opponent is damaged enough that his squad is not really usable anymore either, then you've "gained" one POP of field presence.
Overall, Volks need more support than other mainlines. Build the sand bags also in the late game for better performance.

The only upside to MP40s is the access to HE and smoke grenades- if your opponent has shit micro and you can get HE grenade wipes or make good use of smoke then it can be a decent pick. Otherwise I personally find that the damage drop off for MP40s hurts you more than the CQC benefits you gain. But then again if you want HE grenades you can just use Fusies which are 100 times easier to use lol.

I never found the MP40s worth it. Even current PPSh Conscripts usually win and with the added PPSh will win decently.

I love the Hypocrisy of the Balance team, Less expensive squad win when it comes to allies.

i would take mp40 volks over stg44 volks any day of the weak, sure they can struggle vs specialised cqc spezialists but hey, they get acces to smoke nades, amazing and cheap regular nades and a rec acc buff.

So basically i feel like both upgrates are fine it basically comes down to what you try to achieve

The STG is an upgrade at literally all ranges. DPS wise there is no reason not to take it, even if you want to go for long range fights.

I never found the MP40s worth it. Even current PPSh Conscripts usually win and with the added PPSh will win decently.

Volks with STGs are not as efficient anymore as they used to be 2 years ago, but they are not a bad squad either. They're just not special. Since OKW lacks a specialized AI vehicle in the late game, replacing at least one Volks with Obers is usually a good idea.

You don't use CQC weapons to fight other CQC squads, you use them to walk over long range squads, team weapons, flanks.

CQC units are not balanced around fighting each other and it usually is a bad idea to make whole infantry force composed of them due to attrition in late game.

You've pretty much said everything about StGs tho.

I love the Hypocrisy of the Balance team, Less expensive squad win when it comes to allies.

... This is the point where you should also provide a suggestion to improve MP40s instead of just using a singular unbalanced comparison to shit on the balance team.

You don't use CQC weapons to fight other CQC squads, you use them to walk over long range squads, team weapons, flanks.

CQC units are not balanced around fighting each other and it usually is a bad idea to make whole infantry force composed of them due to attrition in late game.

You've pretty much said everything about StGs tho.

I agree, but this is what happens if a Soviet player counter picks PPSh Cons. You lose engagements unless you transition to Obers. For this purpose you need to sacrifice Volkds to free the POP.
The MP40 Volks do have some perks like the smoke and the nade, but they do lack the punch of other CQC squads. Closest relative would actually be assault Grens I assume.

I agree, but this is what happens if a Soviet player counter picks PPSh Cons. You lose engagements unless you transition to Obers. For this purpose you need to sacrifice Volkds to free the POP.
The MP40 Volks do have some perks like the smoke and the nade, but they do lack the punch of other CQC squads. Closest relative would actually be assault Grens I assume.

Really, the fact that you're heavily incentivised to lose squads as OKW is my biggest gripe with the faction at the moment. Rather than just being fairly weak infantry with no particular role: Volks really should get a very concrete role/upgrade path, and Obers really should arrive soon enough that they can actually fill infantry slots, rather than almost mandatorily requiring that you lose a Volk at some point in order to replace them with an Ober. I honestly don't see any reason you shouldn't be able to build Obers after the first truck (at a lower power level, obviously).


Incidentally; If the argument is that it doesn't matter if one CQC squad wins against another, I would have to assume that buffing MP40 Volks so that they walk all over PPSH cons wouldn't be something anyone would have a problem with.

Really, the fact that you're heavily incentivised to lose squads as OKW is my biggest gripe with the faction at the moment. Rather than just being fairly weak infantry with no particular role: Volks really should get a very concrete role/upgrade path, and Obers really should arrive soon enough that they can actually fill infantry slots, rather than almost mandatorily requiring that you lose a Volk at some point in order to replace them with an Ober. I honestly don't see any reason you shouldn't be able to build Obers after the first truck (at a lower power level, obviously).


Incidentally; If the argument is that it doesn't matter if one CQC squad wins against another, I would have to assume that buffing MP40 Volks so that they walk all over PPSH cons wouldn't be something anyone would have a problem with.

I'd say the problem is not incentivising losing volks, but over spamming them, not taking into account their late game performance into the first place.

1v1 high level will always be a different can of worms, but its not exactly hard to get 1 volk less, 1 kubel instead for map control and replace it later with ober or other elite inf of choice when it outlives its usefulness in any other game mode.

I'd say the problem is not incentivising losing volks, but over spamming them, not taking into account their late game performance into the first place.

1v1 high level will always be a different can of worms, but its not exactly hard to get 1 volk less, 1 kubel instead for map control and replace it later with ober or other elite inf of choice when it outlives its usefulness in any other game mode.

Four Volks feels all but necessary in a lot of cases. Kubels aren't terribly effective vs UKF due to the UC, and SOV picking up a ZIS or Scout Car makes it a bit of a liability, too. If you're "just" getting it for map control purposes vs SOV, incidentally, I feel as though that's going to be a bit of a struggle; Particularly if cons are able to get the drop on your Kubel with an AT grenade.

It can do OK vs USF unless they have a WC i guess.

In any of these cases; You're still having to make do with three mainline squads until you get the fuel/MP together for your BG/Mech and then your Schwerer. It's a long time to be "down" a squad.

Honestly I'm not sure why Volks shouldn't be scalable into the lategame, and Obers be available earlier regardless. Volks need not scale in terms of damage output, merely in utility/cost-effectiveness. I'm still saying that a "mobilise reserves" style upgrade would be a better fit for what Volks are meant to "do" than their STGs.

More viable openings for the faction would really be rather nice.

Really, the fact that you're heavily incentivised to lose squads as OKW is my biggest gripe with the faction at the moment. Rather than just being fairly weak infantry with no particular role: Volks really should get a very concrete role/upgrade path, and Obers really should arrive soon enough that they can actually fill infantry slots, rather than almost mandatorily requiring that you lose a Volk at some point in order to replace them with an Ober. I honestly don't see any reason you shouldn't be able to build Obers after the first truck (at a lower power level, obviously).


Incidentally; If the argument is that it doesn't matter if one CQC squad wins against another, I would have to assume that buffing MP40 Volks so that they walk all over PPSH cons wouldn't be something anyone would have a problem with.

I don't like it either but that's the way it currently is. As Katitof said, a Kubel is probably the best way to skip a Volks into a stall for Obers.
The issue eith those is that their late power level is exactly what OKW needs, which fixes their cost and reinforcement in place. On the other hand you can't fully put their scaling into veterancy so that they can be buildable in the late game.
Earlier Obers must be toned down though, at which point they won't be worth the bleed anymore, especially not compared to STG Volks. Reducing the bleed is impossible because of their strong late game. So where should their place be? Early with too much bleed, or late when appropriate but you can't fit them into the build?
The only way to do it would be to increase the reinforcement cost with the MG upgrade. Or they need tp sacrifice their elite status, which would be bad for the faction as well

I dont think peaple need to make more of an issue with volks than it is, sure their broken vet got toned down and now they might scale a little to bad lategame.


No need to change entire tech structre for a slight 5-10% acc or rec acc buff needed at vet 5

I don't like it either but that's the way it currently is. As Katitof said, a Kubel is probably the best way to skip a Volks into a stall for Obers.
The issue eith those is that their late power level is exactly what OKW needs, which fixes their cost and reinforcement in place. On the other hand you can't fully put their scaling into veterancy so that they can be buildable in the late game.
Earlier Obers must be toned down though, at which point they won't be worth the bleed anymore, especially not compared to STG Volks. Reducing the bleed is impossible because of their strong late game. So where should their place be? Early with too much bleed, or late when appropriate but you can't fit them into the build?
The only way to do it would be to increase the reinforcement cost with the MG upgrade. Or they need tp sacrifice their elite status, which would be bad for the faction as well

Well, there are a few ways that this could be done:

The simplest solution would be to give Obers a tiered upgrade. You might be able to purchase them after the first truck for (for the sake of argument, not an actual suggestion of cost) 290 mp, with a reinforcement cost of, say, 30. A corresponding reduction in strength (in the form of weaker rifles? Lower RA feels like it would defeat the point) comes with this.

Then, for a 50MP upgrade, they would receive their original power level, and original reinforcement cost of 36mp per. Presumably this could come when the Schwerer is placed, and squads built after this point are 340MP, and come "pre-upgraded", in case one needs to replace them for some reason. You may subsequently upgrade the squad with their MG34 as normal.

In this way you would be able to have access to Obers earlier, in order to allow them to vet up a little/fill in your infantry build, though at a power level that doesn't ruin the balance at that stage of the game.


Something similar is what I'd do with Volks, though in the opposite direction. The STG upgrade would ideally be replaced with an upgrade that reduces their bleed, and makes them more effective stalling troops.

I dont think peaple need to make more of an issue with volks than it is, sure their broken vet got toned down and now they might scale a little to bad lategame.


No need to change entire tech structre for a slight 5-10% acc or rec acc buff needed at vet 5

I think the Balance Team have decided that vet 4 and 5 can no longer be "combat" vet levels, they did just remove a combat bonus from Jaegers' vet 5, after all.

In any case, It's not just the vet that's the issue; their STG upgrade is a weird design by itself.

There's a reason the 2 (3 if you stretch it) meta doctrines are Overwatch, Luftwaffe Ground, (and Grand Offensive) and that's because they give you a Volk supplement at CP1/2/(0) so you don't die horribly trying to use your intended mainline infantry.

The fact that the only strategies even worth considering are ones that are attempting to have you use your mainline infantry as little as possible says all that it needs too about Volks.

I still propose trading their vet 2 for one of their vet4/5 utilities (Sight in cover would unironically be nice), and spreading combat bonuses between 1/3/5 with a buff to provide them acceptable late game.

Obers are fine where they are, they're basically an inferior version of existing doctrinal elite infantry that can be used to replace lost Volks or to prop up Volks a bit when you're running a doctrine that doesn't have Elite infantry.

I love the Hypocrisy of the Balance team, Less expensive squad win when it comes to allies.

Glad to see others are being made aware of the Balance Team's lack of Balance.

... This is the point where you should also provide a suggestion to improve MP40s instead of just using a singular unbalanced comparison to shit on the balance team.

This ain't singular though, it's practically the truth. And if you want a suggestion give volks their own varient of mp40 with higher dps up the cost to 60 muni.

I'd say the problem is not incentivising losing volks, but over spamming them, not taking into account their late game performance into the first place.

1v1 high level will always be a different can of worms, but its not exactly hard to get 1 volk less, 1 kubel instead for map control and replace it later with ober or other elite inf of choice when it outlives its usefulness in any other game mode.

Well someone has no idea how the game works or maybe you playing are to many 4v4's and have lost all sense of how to play.