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Pershing vs Tiger. Shouldn't Pershing be buffed?

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leithianz
16 May 2021, 17:39 PM
#41
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 17:29 PMSander93


What about what? Allies get high pen TDs, Axis do not.
The big armor advantage is a myth, both sides are roughly on par.
Axis get a few outliners, and Allies get stock TDs with high pen to deal with them.


We dont't even needs to go t4 to prove this.

sherman/cromwell: 160
t34-76: 150

v.s.

p4: 180 to 234
p4j: stock 234

Even its medium has only 36 lower armor than Pershing. Every tank from t4 has higher armor.
Only UKF has some decent armor tank(comet), but the faction itself is just too broken to play.

1v1 isall about early inf fight to mid-late tank + AT fight. And that armor diff in medium makes a big difference. Just think about why so many soviets go for t34-85. (Sadly e8 for USF is a bit crippled to go for...)
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Sander93
16 May 2021, 17:40 PM
#42
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 17:39 PMleithianz
1v1 isall about early inf fight to mid medium-late tank + AT fight. And that armor diff makes a big difference. Just think about why so many soviets go for t34-85


Heh, you do realise the T-34/85 only has 10 more armor than the /76 right?
Which doesn't matter because basically all Axis AT weapons (except Puma and P4 far) have 160 or more pen?

People get the T-34/85 because of its extra hitpoints.
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Support Sapper
16 May 2021, 17:41 PM
#43
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 17:29 PMSander93


What about what? Allies get high pen TDs, Axis do not.
The big armor advantage is a myth, both sides are roughly on par.
Axis get a few outliners, and Allies get stock TDs with high pen to deal with them.


And my point stand, Pershing's 20 extra pen over the tiger is not an advantage, and that it's AT is nothing special, so the remain strength - AI and mobility - are not enough to off set obvious and numberous weakness of the unit.
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leithianz
16 May 2021, 17:42 PM
#44
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Posts: 472

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 17:40 PMSander93


Heh, you do realise the T-34/85 only has 10 more armor than the /76 right?
Which doesn't matter because basically all Axis AT weapons (except Puma far) have 160 or more pen?


With 800 hp. Armor is another way of having durability. And a good one as it gets higher & rng is with you because deflect will give 0 dmg in most cases.
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SkysTheLimit
16 May 2021, 17:52 PM
#45
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 11:34 AMSander93

I would much rather have the extra raw hitpoints over having to hope for miracle bounces (because 300 armor was not that special).

Then why did you reduce it in the first place? Why not just add the 160 HP? It was absurd that a tank that expensive only had 800 health to begin with

No reason for it to have 270 armor. Makes no sense at all

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Support Sapper
16 May 2021, 17:54 PM
#46
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While at here, i also want to point out how funny that Pershing + CA is referred to as Scarry stuff while all tiger doc come wih at least an ability that either delete or force at gun to move (frag bomb/light arty), force rd away td (at strafe) or an escape route (pz tac).
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SkysTheLimit
16 May 2021, 17:55 PM
#47
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 17:54 PMSupport Sapper
While at here, i also want to point out how funny that Pershing + CA is referred to as Scarry stuff while all tiger doc come wih at least an ability that either delete or force at gun to move (frag bomb/light arty), force rd away td (at strafe) or a free escape (pz tac).

+1

Combined arms is a great ability. But it's a horrible justification for not buffing Pershing, for those exact reasons
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donofsandiego
16 May 2021, 17:59 PM
#48
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 16:43 PMSander93


Axis
Panzer IV 180-234
Panther 270-286
Tiger 300
Brummbar 260-300
Sturmtiger 220
Tiger II 375

Elefant 400
Jagdtiger 450


Allies
Sherman variants up to 215
Comet 290
Churchill Croc/AVRE 290
Churchill Mk.VII 240
Pershing 270
IS-2 340
KV-1 270
KV-2 300
KV-8 260

ISU 340


Except for the superheavy TDs, Axis hardly have more or better armored tanks.



Notice that all tanks you listed besides the Pershing and Sherman aren't USF tanks.
"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?..The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and... the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough...We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”
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Esxile
16 May 2021, 18:19 PM
#49
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 17:54 PMSupport Sapper
While at here, i also want to point out how funny that Pershing + CA is referred to as Scarry stuff while all tiger doc come wih at least an ability that either delete or force at gun to move (frag bomb/light arty), force rd away td (at strafe) or an escape route (pz tac).



seeing how CA is being nerfed to the ground it is not even a valid argument anymore.
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Protos Angelus
16 May 2021, 18:22 PM
#50
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Sander, get your head out of your ass. You're in the plain wrong here and plenty of people have pointed out the mistakes in your arguments and the logical fallacy (eg. stuka close air with tiger commander == nerfing tiger == pershing + CA). Being biased is one thing, but such BS arguments is just below any standards of good taste.
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thedarkarmadillo
16 May 2021, 18:35 PM
#51
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 17:54 PMSupport Sapper
While at here, i also want to point out how funny that Pershing + CA is referred to as Scarry stuff while all tiger doc come wih at least an ability that either delete or force at gun to move (frag bomb/light arty), force rd away td (at strafe) or an escape route (pz tac).

Stuka strafe doesnt buff the stats of the tiger. They support it, not make it itself simply better. Any changes to the Pershing have to be considered in combination with how it will look with CA modifying it.

You can whine all you want but an ability that increases range by 5 and rof by 30% NEEDS to be taken in consideration. You cannot have a Pershing and not have access to the ability. The effect of the ability needs to be in mind when tweaking the unit or we end up with for the father land falls all over again...
#stalinwept
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Support Sapper
16 May 2021, 18:36 PM
#52
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 18:19 PMEsxile



seeing how CA is being nerfed to the ground it is not even a valid argument anymore.


Oh, you remind me that Pershing is going get only 20% reload from CA in the beta, so a vet 3 Pershing with ca and all the efforts to make it happen will take 4.08s for a shot, perfect when compare to 3.71s of a vet 3 tiger, just perfect.
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Support Sapper
16 May 2021, 18:43 PM
#53
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 18:35 PMthedarkarmadillo

Stuka strafe doesnt buff the stats of the tiger. They support it, not make it itself simply better. Any changes to the Pershing have to be considered in combination with how it will look with CA modifying it.

You can whine all you want but an ability that increases range by 5 and rof by 30% NEEDS to be taken in consideration. You cannot have a Pershing and not have access to the ability. The effect of the ability needs to be in mind when tweaking the unit or we end up with for the father land falls all over again...


And i do take it into account and did all the math, with the upcoming neft to ca, the Pershing with ca cant event be on par with tiger in term of rof any more.
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SkysTheLimit
16 May 2021, 18:52 PM
#54
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 18:35 PMthedarkarmadillo

Stuka strafe doesnt buff the stats of the tiger. They support it, not make it itself simply better.

Imo this is not THAT important of a distinction. Especially for people like me who just want 300 armor back (on top of the vet fixes). CA doesn't effect armor, the % buffs of that ability won't cascade into +500 armor or something

This also leaves out the PTAC example, which absolutely buffs the Tiger. The point that matters is that these are STRONG abilities that synergize with the Tiger. CA by itself is not a reason to dissallow buffing

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 18:35 PMthedarkarmadillo

You can whine all you want but an ability that increases range by 5 and rof by 30% NEEDS to be taken in consideration.

Of course it should. But there are plenty of similarly strong ability combos with Tigers, so by itself its not a great argument
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leithianz
16 May 2021, 18:54 PM
#55
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Posts: 472

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 18:35 PMthedarkarmadillo

You can whine all you want but an ability that increases range by 5 and rof by 30% NEEDS to be taken in consideration. You cannot have a Pershing and not have access to the ability. The effect of the ability needs to be in mind when tweaking the unit or we end up with for the father land falls all over again...


But...But... Tiger gets that range + 5 & ROF with stock vet. Ain't it? So maybe we should cut that out with active skill that costs something like 50 muni?

+

I have tested
vet3 Pershing + CA v.s. vet3 Tiger
on range 10 / 30 / 43 (between 40~45) 4 times each.

range 10: Pershing wins 1 time / lose 3 times
range 30: Pershing wins 1 time / lose 3 times
range 43: Pershing wins 2 times / lose 2 times
I did not bother to test more, but I can assure you without CA Pershing loses all the time on every range. (Unless Pershing gets extremely lucky). And if we include the fact that CA is getting nerf in next patch...
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mrgame2
16 May 2021, 19:13 PM
#56
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Posts: 1794

I forgot the patch note, but pershing is not only getting a speed buff, but at vet2 instead of 3. Other buff like smaller target size protect it from Shrek up to elefant. Then with the reload buffs, ability buff and even havp buff. Sure it loses 160hp.

Lol it got bigger positive changes than my suggestions. It's going to be boss in 2v2 imo. It's going to run in and gun out. Smashing all axis med tanks and dueling well with panthers and circling tigers just fine
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minhuh064
16 May 2021, 19:19 PM
#57
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Posts: 63

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 19:13 PMmrgame2
I forgot the patch note, but pershing is not only getting a speed buff, but at vet2 instead of 3. Other buff like smaller target size protect it from Shrek up to elefant. Then with the reload buffs, ability buff and even havp buff. Sure it loses 160hp.

Lol it got bigger positive changes than my suggestions. It's going to be boss in 2v2 imo. It's going to run in and gun out. Smashing all axis med tanks and dueling well with panthers and circling tigers just fine


Yeah, Tightrope did exactly what u dream of, look how that match played out in the end
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TkRJ-1fg-k&t=2845s&ab_channel=tightropegaming
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Jilet
16 May 2021, 19:22 PM
#58
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Posts: 556

I think people that want to buff Pershing really need to consider that the unit will play with the ABSOLUTE BEST TD in the game. If any buffs, it should be to the price of the unit, not to the potency or combat effectives.
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Katitof
16 May 2021, 19:25 PM
#59
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 19:13 PMmrgame2
I forgot the patch note, but pershing is not only getting a speed buff, but at vet2 instead of 3.

Pershing is the only heavy that did NOT had speed vet and what it got is half of what others get.

Other buff like smaller target size protect it from Shrek up to elefant.

Where would be a patch note for that? Because it most certainly isn't in the current log.

Then with the reload buffs, ability buff and even havp buff. Sure it loses 160hp.

Reload is not really a buff, but a compensation for another stat that diminishes actual value, which other heavies don't suffer. Its a fix, not a buff.

Lol it got bigger positive changes than my suggestions. It's going to be boss in 2v2 imo. It's going to run in and gun out. Smashing all axis med tanks and dueling well with panthers and circling tigers just fine

Its going back to being premium med instead of actual heavy, so yeah, its going to be skirmisher instead of brawler.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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minhuh064
16 May 2021, 19:26 PM
#60
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Posts: 63

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 19:22 PMJilet
I think people that want to buff Pershing really need to consider that the unit will play with the ABSOLUTE BEST TD in the game. If any buffs, it should be to the price of the unit, not to the potency or combat effectives.


Then you also forget that picking Pershing means u have to give up on Calliope and Offmap abilities, so good luck breaking through MG and Pak walls later on while ur inf get massacred by pzweffer or stuka
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