You have Pioneer with superior vision, best hmg and then pzgren uncontestable by any mainline infantry before long.
Many maps are so lanely that two hmg is more than enough to temporize those 3 minutes and half but I have seen 3 hmg start with a bit more delay on the pzgren.
Bo is x2 hmg, x1 pioneer, BP1, Pzgren before 3:30
Imo, those should lose 2 stg and have them upgraded for free once T2 is built.
Is 3:26 balanced as timing for 1st Pzgren to hit the field?
13 May 2021, 15:07 PM
#1
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
13 May 2021, 15:51 PM
#2
Posts: 1515
On one hand I can agree with this. As a 3v3 player, the wide arc on the MG42 coupled with pio sight and PGrens rushing you down is cancerous. As USF you either need to tech nades fast to smoke and sink those precious munis or just play around parts which are not contested (non-fuel parts). Leads to stale games where as USF, you go online once AA HT and pak howis go online. Which is around min 7. (or stuart).
On the other hand, I feel like OST would be in a disadvantage if they didn't go for that build. MG42 is absolutely needed. Grens are great on long range, but quite poor on close. Pios are good close range but only if they are already behind cover.
So OST has the quite effective PGrens at an early timing which do s*** on all mainlines, then further amplified by the fast LV.
Is it unbalanced? Maybe. But that's mostly because of map design. If the maps were not completely lockable by one MG42 then we would have a different story, at least in 3v3+. So I mostly blame the poor map design, rather than OST having "OP" units.
On the other hand, I feel like OST would be in a disadvantage if they didn't go for that build. MG42 is absolutely needed. Grens are great on long range, but quite poor on close. Pios are good close range but only if they are already behind cover.
So OST has the quite effective PGrens at an early timing which do s*** on all mainlines, then further amplified by the fast LV.
Is it unbalanced? Maybe. But that's mostly because of map design. If the maps were not completely lockable by one MG42 then we would have a different story, at least in 3v3+. So I mostly blame the poor map design, rather than OST having "OP" units.
13 May 2021, 17:11 PM
#3
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
The problem is mostly on teamgame and don't believe it doesn't affect 2vs2, there are too many shitty map on 2vs2 at the moment.
Anyway I'm not saying this build shouldn't exist but in term of balance the actual situation is problematic.
My principal concern is the lack of side investment in fuel or munition to make the build effective vs what it cost to the opponent to counter it. No need to pay extra munition for the extra vision, no munition or fuel to be able to lock down half of the map with 2 hmg and no extra munition cost to access pzgren fully operational from start.
The opponent either way have to build a mortar or side tech meaning he's already investing more resources into countering the hmg and then above that he's facing superior infantry really fast to which again he must respond by using more fuel and munition to stay on the field.
In opposition the Ostheer player didn't had to use more munition or fuel other than to tech his BP1, build his medic bunker and then his T2 and get 2 or 3 222 and try to run over you.
The possibility of snowballing his huge and come with only one unique downside, not having snare.
But that's so trivial because if it works Ostheer is already controlling 2/3 of the map including both fuel and his opponent shouldn't be able to get a vehicle before you have your first 222 roaming the field.
Anyway I'm not saying this build shouldn't exist but in term of balance the actual situation is problematic.
My principal concern is the lack of side investment in fuel or munition to make the build effective vs what it cost to the opponent to counter it. No need to pay extra munition for the extra vision, no munition or fuel to be able to lock down half of the map with 2 hmg and no extra munition cost to access pzgren fully operational from start.
The opponent either way have to build a mortar or side tech meaning he's already investing more resources into countering the hmg and then above that he's facing superior infantry really fast to which again he must respond by using more fuel and munition to stay on the field.
In opposition the Ostheer player didn't had to use more munition or fuel other than to tech his BP1, build his medic bunker and then his T2 and get 2 or 3 222 and try to run over you.
The possibility of snowballing his huge and come with only one unique downside, not having snare.
But that's so trivial because if it works Ostheer is already controlling 2/3 of the map including both fuel and his opponent shouldn't be able to get a vehicle before you have your first 222 roaming the field.
14 May 2021, 00:53 AM
#4
Posts: 556
While I do agree PGrens timing is strong, aren't allied Elites able to also come at this time like Shocks or Guards ?
Brits have their own massive arc MG with good infantry from the start to mow them from long range as they approach and Soviets have the early sniper to instantly reduce them to 3 people. Only issue can arise with maybe USF but isn't PGrens trying to close in to Riflemen just playing to Riflemen's hand ?
Maybe I am horribly wrong, but thats just my opinion here.
Brits have their own massive arc MG with good infantry from the start to mow them from long range as they approach and Soviets have the early sniper to instantly reduce them to 3 people. Only issue can arise with maybe USF but isn't PGrens trying to close in to Riflemen just playing to Riflemen's hand ?
Maybe I am horribly wrong, but thats just my opinion here.
14 May 2021, 06:23 AM
#5
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
While I do agree PGrens timing is strong, aren't allied Elites able to also come at this time like Shocks or Guards ?
No, at earliest they come around 6th minute.
14 May 2021, 20:21 PM
#6
Posts: 320
They come in incredibly early and are very good units, but if you see this (aka notice his lack of grens at the start, his PG bulletins) and you use any sort of early light vehicle it's gg. What's he gonna do? Spend 120 muni + 340 MP just for 2 shreks? Lack of faust is a big deal, ask brits. Converting them to Shrek squads defeats the point of why you went the build in the first place. Fight cheese with cheese I suppose.
I know way back in the day I experimented with Agrens. 2mgs, 1 pio 2 Agrens, Then into Pgrens. Two 222s were mandatory a long with littering the place with teller mines. Can it work? Yea it can but you rely on luck (mines) and you rely on not any of your 222's or you can't even face a Stuart equivalent.
I know way back in the day I experimented with Agrens. 2mgs, 1 pio 2 Agrens, Then into Pgrens. Two 222s were mandatory a long with littering the place with teller mines. Can it work? Yea it can but you rely on luck (mines) and you rely on not any of your 222's or you can't even face a Stuart equivalent.
14 May 2021, 20:46 PM
#7
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
They come in incredibly early and are very good units, but if you see this (aka notice his lack of grens at the start, his PG bulletins) and you use any sort of early light vehicle it's gg. What's he gonna do? Spend 120 muni + 340 MP just for 2 shreks? Lack of faust is a big deal, ask brits. Converting them to Shrek squads defeats the point of why you went the build in the first place. Fight cheese with cheese I suppose.
I know way back in the day I experimented with Agrens. 2mgs, 1 pio 2 Agrens, Then into Pgrens. Two 222s were mandatory a long with littering the place with teller mines. Can it work? Yea it can but you rely on luck (mines) and you rely on not any of your 222's or you can't even face a Stuart equivalent.
On 1vs1 I agree since you'll be flanked if you stay with so few infantry line unit. But on 2vs2 you don't face this issue and can get your 222 really fast. I mean allied faction are far from their own light vehicle at 3.30 minutes.
15 May 2021, 23:47 PM
#8
Posts: 4928
I miss pre-WFA T2 Panzergrenadiers that wrecked shit, but came at a cost. In a way they were kinda like how Shock Troops are now, but with more range, and Panzerschrecks. Maybe Obers is a better comparison, but they come later and are not impressive for their timing.
17 May 2021, 19:52 PM
#9
Posts: 359
They come in incredibly early and are very good units, but if you see this (aka notice his lack of grens at the start, his PG bulletins) and you use any sort of early light vehicle it's gg. What's he gonna do? Spend 120 muni + 340 MP just for 2 shreks? Lack of faust is a big deal, ask brits. Converting them to Shrek squads defeats the point of why you went the build in the first place. Fight cheese with cheese I suppose.
I know way back in the day I experimented with Agrens. 2mgs, 1 pio 2 Agrens, Then into Pgrens. Two 222s were mandatory a long with littering the place with teller mines. Can it work? Yea it can but you rely on luck (mines) and you rely on not any of your 222's or you can't even face a Stuart equivalent.
I'm not sure if a UC, Jeep, or clown car can punish that set up much. Clown car with flamers probably the best bet right? but yeah, there really isnt much light vehicles can do that early.
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