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KV1 nerfs, When?

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porkloin
15 Apr 2021, 07:09 AM
#21
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jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2021, 01:32 AMelchino7


How isn't from a practicality point of view?


Because it ignores the asymmetry, and relative faction power. It just picks two vehicles in the same 'class' calls them equal, and then calls unequal costs imbalanced.

If I wanted to engage in the same type of argument I could just as easily cry for massive nerfs to KV-1, t34/85, and all the premium shermans since panther is so much more expensive.

I don't spam threads with this though because I don't want to actually rot peoples brains. I just want to stop reading the same awful arguments over and over.
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jagd wölfe
15 Apr 2021, 11:10 AM
#22
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It wouldn't be an issue if they didn't come out by the time medium tanks do
Rushing a KV-8 against an OST player is catastrophic because Stugs aren't reliable counters to it. You are supposed to face the healthpool and armor of a Panther way BEFORE the Panther can arrive and it so just happens that this tank hard counters anti tank guns AND has a main gun with penetration equivalent (and superior at close range) to normal mediums
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jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2021, 07:47 AMKatitof

They certainly hide from me.
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Katitof
15 Apr 2021, 11:40 AM
#23
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jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2021, 11:10 AMjagd wölfe
It wouldn't be an issue if they didn't come out by the time medium tanks do
Rushing a KV-8 against an OST player is catastrophic because Stugs aren't reliable counters to it. You are supposed to face the healthpool and armor of a Panther way BEFORE the Panther can arrive and it so just happens that this tank hard counters anti tank guns AND has a main gun with penetration equivalent (and superior at close range) to normal mediums

So you need 2 paks instead of 1 to keep it in check and maybe actually put down that one teller on obvious approach, because KV-1 isn't going to be flanking you.

I don't really know what people expect with just 1 PaK or stug against it.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Hannibal
15 Apr 2021, 11:56 AM
#24
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jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2021, 11:10 AMjagd wölfe
It wouldn't be an issue if they didn't come out by the time medium tanks do
Rushing a KV-8 against an OST player is catastrophic because Stugs aren't reliable counters to it. You are supposed to face the healthpool and armor of a Panther way BEFORE the Panther can arrive and it so just happens that this tank hard counters anti tank guns AND has a main gun with penetration equivalent (and superior at close range) to normal mediums

Are you talking about the KV8 or KV1?
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Leo251
15 Apr 2021, 12:19 PM
#25
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Another big problem with KV1s are the units that support them, and destroy their counters.

Katys rape Paks in one or two volleys. In 2v2+ this is real.
7men Cons snare panthers, invalidating its chase options.

Add to this the horrible Panther accuracy on the move and Stugs not penning KV1. This combo of issues are what steamrolls Ost to be defeated.
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MMX
15 Apr 2021, 12:24 PM
#26
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wait what, in what universe are stug(s) no reliable counter to a kv-8?
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Katitof
15 Apr 2021, 12:24 PM
#27
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jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2021, 12:24 PMMMX
wait what, in what universe are stug(s) no reliable counter to a kv-8?

May I present you the dark realm of 4 digit rank 4v4 RT?

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2021, 12:19 PMLeo251
Another big problem with KV1s are the units that support them, and destroy their counters.

Katys rape Paks in one or two volleys. In 2v2+ this is real.

But katys were destroyed by counter barrage lefh.

7men Cons snare panthers, invalidating its chase options.

But 7 man cons were pinned by HMG42.
Plus, what 7 man cons? Brummbar 1-2 shotted all of them, so there is no soviet infantry on field besides CEs anymore and your panther has completely free reign to move anywhere.

Add to this the horrible Panther accuracy on the move and Stugs not penning KV1.

Why do you need to always be on the move against KV-1? Its much slower and with large target size accuracy is not a problem. Why do you move StuGs around?

This combo of issues

Got solved by ost own tools.

See? Its very easy to always have theoretical hardcounter to everything you face to make other side look unbeatable.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Klement Pikhtura
15 Apr 2021, 12:28 PM
#28
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 20:27 PMporkloin


You can already get a t-34 before a p4. Most players choose a t-70 beforehand which is an optional investment and for obvious reasons delays the t-34.

I'm really tired of this myth that the p4 comes out earlier than the t-34 as it'd only be true if the t-34 is locked behind t-70, which it's not.

disclaimer: I'm omitting manpower cost, because I'm lazy and my spreadsheet is one patch out of date.
Phase 1 + Phase 2 = 145f. T1+T2+T3 = 30f. P4 is 120F. If you going for 251 or 222 - 30f on top. 325 with lights and 295f without. Ofc you can also skip t2 building, saving 20f more, but this is way too ballsy and quite hard, since shreks are unreliable.

T2+T3+T4 = 190f. If you add molly/at nade tech it is another 15f on top. T34-76 is 90f. At minimum you are paying 280F with T2. If you did not skip conscript tech - 295f.

I'd say that total cost is closer then it looks, but it is definitely possible to get t34-76 before OST gets its P4, but the difference is not as big as the difference in price between p4 and t34-76.

Correct me if I screwed up some numbers.
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jagd wölfe
15 Apr 2021, 12:31 PM
#29
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Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2021, 11:56 AMHannibal

Are you talking about the KV8 or KV1?

Both have a timing issue
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jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2021, 07:47 AMKatitof

They certainly hide from me.
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Leo251
15 Apr 2021, 12:37 PM
#30
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Posts: 311

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2021, 12:24 PMMMX
wait what, in what universe are stug(s) no reliable counter to a kv-8?

This post is about KV1. Who said KV8??
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Aarotron
15 Apr 2021, 12:39 PM
#31
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Posts: 563

Kv 1 lives to be meatshield and medium deterrant. It has very little else to go by.
"Pain is almost euphoric sam!"
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Leo251
15 Apr 2021, 12:43 PM
#32
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Posts: 311

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2021, 12:24 PMKatitof

May I present you the dark realm of 4 digit rank 4v4 RT?


But katys were destroyed by counter barrage lefh.


But 7 man cons were pinned by HMG42.
Plus, what 7 man cons? Brummbar 1-2 shotted all of them, so there is no soviet infantry on field besides CEs anymore and your panther has completely free reign to move anywhere.


Why do you need to always be on the move against KV-1? Its much slower and with large target size accuracy is not a problem. Why do you move StuGs around?


Got solved by ost own tools.

See? Its very easy to always have theoretical hardcounter to everything you face to make other side look unbeatable.

Sometimes I dont know if you are talking about COH2 or some other game..
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Katitof
15 Apr 2021, 12:47 PM
#33
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jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2021, 12:43 PMLeo251

Sometimes I dont know if you are talking about COH2 or some other game..

And I sometimes wonder if there really are people who always are hardcountered at any stage of the game, like they say in their posts as evidenced by your earlier post.

Perhaps you need a tutor? I've heard Felinewolfie likes to teach basics, if you struggle so much, perhaps you could ask him for some basic pointers?

What did you expected?
You've presented imaginary scenario, where every single unit you have was hardcountered by what opponent had with you being able to do nothing else but curling in a ball in your base sector and crying until 0 VP.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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jagd wölfe
15 Apr 2021, 12:49 PM
#34
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Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2021, 12:24 PMMMX
wait what, in what universe are stug(s) no reliable counter to a kv-8?

In the universe where a 170 penetration stat is not enough to reliably penetrate 260 armor?
Unless I missed something and Su76M are also counters to Panthers..
https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198119448887

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2021, 07:47 AMKatitof

They certainly hide from me.
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GachiGasm
15 Apr 2021, 12:49 PM
#35
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jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2021, 11:40 AMKatitof

So you need 2 paks instead of 1 to keep it in check and maybe actually put down that one teller on obvious approach, because KV-1 isn't going to be flanking you.

I don't really know what people expect with just 1 PaK or stug against it.


Yeah like duh its just an additional 320 MP investement into a deducated AT unit, in a short period of time. Not like you need your own tank at this point, not like soviets are getting both AT and AI tank and getting reserves at this time, while you are investing MP into AT units.

Just get additional PaK #4head, its ez.
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jagd wölfe
15 Apr 2021, 12:50 PM
#36
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Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2021, 12:24 PMKatitof

May I present you the dark realm of 4 digit rank 4v4 RT?


But katys were destroyed by counter barrage lefh.


But 7 man cons were pinned by HMG42.
Plus, what 7 man cons? Brummbar 1-2 shotted all of them, so there is no soviet infantry on field besides CEs anymore and your panther has completely free reign to move anywhere.


Why do you need to always be on the move against KV-1? Its much slower and with large target size accuracy is not a problem. Why do you move StuGs around?


Got solved by ost own tools.

See? Its very easy to always have theoretical hardcounter to everything you face to make other side look unbeatable.

Absolutely delusional post
Pure clown world
https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198119448887

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2021, 07:47 AMKatitof

They certainly hide from me.
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general_gawain
15 Apr 2021, 12:50 PM
#37
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Posts: 919

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2021, 11:10 AMjagd wölfe
It wouldn't be an issue if they didn't come out by the time medium tanks do
Rushing a KV-8 against an OST player is catastrophic because Stugs aren't reliable counters to it. You are supposed to face the healthpool and armor of a Panther way BEFORE the Panther can arrive and it so just happens that this tank hard counters anti tank guns AND has a main gun with penetration equivalent (and superior at close range) to normal mediums


The StuG is the natural counter for KV-8 and KV-1 alike. If one is not enough watch two of them obliterate KV-1/KV-8. 50 range plus decent penetration is all you need. Its probably the most cost efficient TD of the game, what else do you want? The problem is that axis players got used going for PZIV first because of its great AI damage. Since KV-1/KV-8 both come out a little bit later than PZIV soviet player can safely build them if he saw your PZIV already. A PZIV isn't the best choice versus any KV obviously.
So if you see KV-1/KV-8 on your opponents loadout you should watch out if he uses other commander abilties that will lead to KV-1/KV-8. Don't rely on ATGs alone, consider building StuG(s) because they can't be countered by combination with Katjusha.
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Katitof
15 Apr 2021, 12:51 PM
#38
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Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2021, 12:50 PMjagd wölfe

Absolutely delusional post
Pure clown world

I've got bad news for you.
If you didn't understood the point of it, its about you as well.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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jagd wölfe
15 Apr 2021, 13:02 PM
#39
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Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2021, 12:51 PMKatitof

I've got bad news for you.
If you didn't understood the point of it, its about you as well.

First of all, try to understand why a player would want to move around a 50 range turretless 170 far pen tank destroyer vs a 40 range 260 armor and 960 hp heavy tank
Play the game
https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198119448887

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2021, 07:47 AMKatitof

They certainly hide from me.
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MMX
15 Apr 2021, 13:07 PM
#40
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jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2021, 12:37 PMLeo251

This post is about KV1. Who said KV8??

the post right above the one you quoted

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2021, 12:49 PMjagd wölfe

In the universe where a 170 penetration stat is not enough to reliably penetrate 260 armor?
Unless I missed something and Su76M are also counters to Panthers..

excuse me but how is that even a remotely valid analogy? even if both deflect half or more shots versus their respective target, the kv-8 isn't able to fight back while the panther can. seriously, if you can't counter a kv-8 with a dedicated td than this is a clear-cut l2p issue.

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