KV1 nerfs, When?

The StuG is the natural counter for KV-8 and KV-1 alike. If one is not enough watch two of them obliterate KV-1/KV-8. 50 range plus decent penetration is all you need. Its probably the most cost efficient TD of the game, what else do you want? The problem is that axis players got used going for PZIV first because of its great AI damage. Since KV-1/KV-8 both come out a little bit later than PZIV soviet player can safely build them if he saw your PZIV already. A PZIV isn't the best choice versus any KV obviously.
So if you see KV-1/KV-8 on your opponents loadout you should watch out if he uses other commander abilties that will lead to KV-1/KV-8. Don't rely on ATGs alone, consider building StuG(s) because they can't be countered by combination with Katjusha.

10 meters is no real range advantage for the same way it's not a real range advantage on allies side in the Panther/Stug vs Allied TD matchup
Kiting them results in firing on the move shots that have 65% chance to penetrate, with the target being able to take 6 of those shots and instantly denying the use of any infantry at support

First of all, try to understand why a player would want to move around a 50 range turretless 170 far pen tank destroyer vs a 40 range 260 armor and 960 hp heavy tank
Play the game

You'll have to try harder then that. M10 is effective vs tiger, so is SU-76, just that 1 is insufficient. Would you like to know penetration and armor differences here?

First of all, try to understand why a player would want to move around a 50 range turretless 170 far pen tank destroyer vs a 40 range 260 armor and 960 hp heavy tank
Play the game

That is a 65% chance to penetrate with a RoF of 5,25 seconds for a tank that costs only 50 fuel!

Edit: Misstyped, meant 90 fuel.

excuse me but how is that even a remotely valid analogy? even if both deflect half or more shots versus their respective target, the kv-8 isn't able to fight back while the panther can.

That's a curious statement

In a vacuum
The SU-76M has a 10 range advantage over a Panther
The KV-8 has a 10 range disadvantage over the Stug
The SU-76M has 0.65 chances to penetrate a Panther at mid range
The KV-8 45mm has 0.6 chances to penetrate a Stug at mid range

In a real match
The KV-8 deters every single counter to itself while the soviet player uses a double 60 range zis to deter every stug, which, being a turretless tank, won't be able to move outside of firecones while shooting

So explain how the Stug is an hardcounter

for a tank that costs only 50 fuel!

What?

What?

I misstyped, corrected it. I meant 90 fuel. That is damn cheap.

You'll have to try harder then that. M10 is effective vs tiger

I'm sure it is, it's a nice 80 fuel tank with a turrent and HVAP for 220 minimum penetration

That's a curious statement

In a vacuum
The SU-76M has a 10 range advantage over a Panther
The KV-8 has a 10 range disadvantage over the Stug
The SU-76M has 0.65% chances to penetrate a Panther at mid range
The KV-8 45mm has 0.6% chances to penetrate a Stug at mid range

In a real match
The KV-8 deters every single counter to itself while the soviet player uses a double 60 range zis to deter every stug, which, being a turretless tank, won't be able to move outside of firecones while shooting

First your numbers are way off. Since you corrected me, I'll do you this favor too. I do think you want to say 60% instead of 0.6% and 65% instead of 0.65%.

You just cant't compare SU-76 versus Panther with StuG versus KV-8, since Panther has the speed advantage and thus dictates the fight while at StuG versus KV-8 the StuG is the faster one and dictates the fight. This is true for accleration too not only top speed.

You just cant't compare SU-76 versus Panther with StuG versus KV-8, since Panther has the speed advantage and thus dictates the fight while at StuG versus KV-8 the StuG is the faster one and dictates the fight. This is true for accleration too not only top speed.

That speed and range meams nothing whem Zis that have 60 range are carried with it are present.
If you invest 180 fuel in Stugs instead of taking a Panther for 185 you need 3 salvos of penetrating hits to (ideally) destroy it, which means that a Soviet player using it has a lot of room for using it while being able to hardcounter your turretless tanks with zis.
There's no way to dictate the engagements with a 50 range td. Especially in a VP battle when the kv8 can quickly dive, decrew or force any pak to move and potentially have to heal and roll back with more than a few shots away from any consequence.
Tier 4 is a much more viable option and I just don't see a good reason for KV-8 to arrive so soon. It's a great attrition tool and its timing should reflect it

That speed and range meams nothing whem Zis that have 60 range are carried with it are present.
If you invest 180 fuel in Stugs instead of taking a Panther for 185 you need 3 salvos of penetrating hits to (ideally) destroy it, which means that a Soviet player using it has a lot of room for using it while being able to hardcounter your turretless tanks with zis.
There's no way to dictate the engagements with a 50 range td. Especially in a VP battle when the kv8 can quickly dive, decrew or force any pak to move and potentially have to heal and roll back with more than a few shots away from any consequence.
Tier 4 is a much more viable option and I just don't see a good reason for KV-8 to arrive so soon. It's a great attrition tool and its timing should reflect it

I just imagined a 30 range 5 speed tank "quickly" diving in to decrew a pak. The words and the images just don't fit.

If he has double ZIS and KV-8 you should have something in addition to your StuGs too. Maybe some indirect fire support to decrew ZIS, force it away or smoke it? You are constructing vacuum situations without taking into account that Ostheer has combined arms too.

Just tell me where you want to put KV-8 in soviet tech. Don't say locked by CPs since that will absolutely ruin the timing of the unit in 3vs3/4vs4. This game isn't only about 1vs1.

I have been seeing a massive rise of KV1s in 2on2s, they're the osttruppen meta flavour of the month. I would prefer seeing some other meta than seeing an existing meta being nerfed to death. WC51 were annoying to play against, but now, they're just deleted from the game from patch to another. Don't do that to KV1, I still want to see them but not in every 2on2 games ...

I just imagined a 30 range 5 speed tank "quickly" diving in to decrew a pak. The words and the images just don't fit.

It barely needs a few seconds. Unless you have a massive alpha strike there's no way you can fend it off with paks

If he has double ZIS and KV-8 you should have something in addition to your StuGs too. Maybe some indirect fire support to decrew ZIS, force it away or smoke it? You are constructing vacuum situations without taking into account that Ostheer has combined arms too.

Ok? I'm not sayjng it's not counterable, i'm saying that the pressure it puts warrants an Ostheer Tier 4 timing equivalent. The closest comparison in terms of role is the Bruumbar, but the Brummbar is LESS durable, has no turret and is in Tier 4. And while the bruumbar is more capable of wipe potential (especially using attack ground) the KV-8 can deny the use of multiple paks way better with a little micro.
"Smoke the zis guns" hardly cuts it when you are dealing with a 960 hp unit using as counter 170 pen turretless cannon, even if you can buy time for 2 salvos (10 seconds) which is kind of overly optimistic. Your options are very limited.

Would the Brummbar be balanced if it came before Tier 4?

Just tell me where you want to put KV-8 in soviet tech. Don't say locked by CPs since that will absolutely ruin the timing of the unit in 3vs3/4vs4. This game isn't only about 1vs1.

Sure, I get it, I just said that it should come later in 1vs1. I could easily argue that many units are completely unviable in 1vs1 because they were balanced to be less broken in resource inflated teamgames.

It barely needs a few seconds. Unless you have a massive alpha strike there's no way you can fend it off with paks

I don't said fend it off with PAKs, I said it is unlikely that it will dive in fast and kill off a PAK in one fireburst. It is more realistic you will withdraw the PAK since KV-8 will get damaged too and has to withdraw by itself. The short range always comes at risk because of snares.

Ok? I'm not sayjng it's not counterable, i'm saying that the pressure it puts warrants an Ostheer Tier 4 timing equivalent. The closest comparison in terms of role is the Bruumbar, but the Brummbar is LESS durable, has no turret and is in Tier 4. And while the bruumbar is more capable of wipe potential (especially using attack ground) the KV-8 can deny the use of multiple paks way better with a little micro.
"Smoke the zis guns" hardly cuts it when you are dealing with a 960 hp unit using as counter 170 pen turretless cannon, even if you can buy time for 2 salvos (10 seconds) which is kind of overly optimistic. Your options are very limited.

As you said there are counters and yes a KV-8/ZiS combo puts a lot of pressure on Ostheer. To be honest it better has to put pressure on Ostheer because once Ostheer reaches T4 the ZIS/KV-8 combo will quickly turn into a dead end if you didn't manage to push your opponent back far enough.

Would the Brummbar be balanced if it came before Tier 4?

No, but it is quite a bit stronger, especially versus moving infantry. A single squad of PZGrens or Panzerfusiliers can deal quite a bit of damage to KV-8 with its double shrek if you keep moving it while reloading the Shreks. Stop between KV-8 fireburst to shoot. That is pretty impossible versus Brummbar or 105mm Dozer.

Sure, I get it, I just said that it should come later in 1vs1. I could easily argue that many units are completely unviable in 1vs1 because they were balanced to be less broken in resource inflated teamgames.

I understand your point. But how should it be done without changing Soviet tech? The only thing that would make sense and change something without screwing teamgame timing would be to give it even more AI damage but nerf AT performance by quite a bit. That way you could flank/kill ZIS with a PZIV (and maybe mortar smoke support) without having to worry about KV-8.

I don't said fend it off with PAKs, I said it is unlikely that it will dive in fast and kill off a PAK in one fireburst. It is more realistic you will withdraw the PAK since KV-8 will get damaged too and has to withdraw by itself. The short range always comes at risk because of snares.

Indeed, you will have to move paks (and potentially heal them) like I said. This is really damaging since it opens up to infantry or vehicle pushes in a meta reliant on at guns, so if a KV-8 can flame your (ideally) mg42 and 2 paks and retreat behind its at before the stug can fire 2 shots, it has done its job already, and you hardly need to go in snare range (30 m is not 10)
Sure, with a snare you can use at guns at distance to punish it of course, but that opens a can of worms because the last thing you want to do is use grenadiers to engage enemy infantry at < 30 m from that KV-8
Even if an infantry push keeps the at gun away from the flame projector, you are gonna bleed a lot and not trade efficiently in damage against the KV-8

As you said there are counters and yes a KV-8/ZiS combo puts a lot of pressure on Ostheer.

Glad we agree

To be honest it better has to put pressure on Ostheer because once Ostheer reaches T4 the ZIS/KV-8 combo will quickly turn into a dead end if you didn't manage to push your opponent back far enough.

Glad we also agree that Ostheer best chance at countering KV-8 is Tier 4. I don't see how KV-8 + Zis can be a dead end against Tier 4 tho. It sure helps having a vehicle that can endure a few shots and be sure to penetrate KV-8 (Panther), but Zis and KV-8 themselves don't lose their effectiveness as at gun and high hp meatshield with DOT against infantry/weapon crews that can force MG and at gun repositioning, which makes it a vital tool in late game VP stand offs

No, but it is quite a bit stronger, especially versus moving infantry. A single squad of PZGrens or Panzerfusiliers can deal quite a bit of damage to KV-8 with its double shrek if you keep moving it while reloading the Shreks. Stop between KV-8 fireburst to shoot. That is pretty impossible versus Brummbar or 105mm Dozer.

Yeah, like I said, Brummbar as higher damage potential, but a flamethrower advantage is being able to force off several weapon crews by the time a brummbar could fire 2 shots, and especially be GRANTED that the weapon crews is going to have to relocate
I don't see at infantry countering a KV-8 unless it's left really unsupported tho, or at least I wouldn't try. Maybe it works, I really don't know. For how slow it can be, I doubt that you can actually punish it this way, and unless it's left unsupported your grenadiers are going to have an issue when supporting shrecks if they need to face shocks or cons

I understand your point. But how should it be done without changing Soviet tech? The only thing that would make sense and change something without screwing teamgame timing would be to give it even more AI damage but nerf AT performance by quite a bit. That way you could flank/kill ZIS with a PZIV (and maybe mortar smoke support) without having to worry about KV-8.

It could be made to require an extra ad hoc Tier 4 side tech upgrade.
Actually I thought of this originally for the OKW Panzer 4 in Tier 3 for Ostheer, similar to how the Soviets can pay extra fuel to unlock 7 men at Tier 3.

KV1 is the new meta. This tank is out of control, really really OP.

It deserves a big nerf in 1 or 2 of the following stats:
- HP.
- Armor.
- Price.
- Pop.
- Rotation speed and acc.
- Speed.
- Penetration (I see a lot of shots penning Panthers frontal armor. Maybe 4 out of 10).
- Limit to max 1 per time.

I think the change to 16 pop is enough and is in the right direction. the KV-1 is only really a problem as OST.

OH: T1 + BP1 + T2 + BP2 + T3 + Medics = 770/175/60

SU: T2 + Medics + Grenades + T3 + T4 = 990/205

Both factions start with 20f and OH has a surplus of 30mp

PIV: 350/120
T34: 300/90

Fuel wise they arrive at the same time while you still have an advantage mp wise.

But does that actually happen in game though. Theory and practice are not the same.

That's a curious statement

In a vacuum
The SU-76M has a 10 range advantage over a Panther
The KV-8 has a 10 range disadvantage over the Stug
The SU-76M has 0.65 chances to penetrate a Panther at mid range
The KV-8 45mm has 0.6 chances to penetrate a Stug at mid range

In a real match
The KV-8 deters every single counter to itself while the soviet player uses a double 60 range zis to deter every stug, which, being a turretless tank, won't be able to move outside of firecones while shooting

So explain how the Stug is an hardcounter

There is one glaring issue in this comparison though. The Panther is much more mobile compared to it's target while kv-8 is not. I'm pretty sure(ok idk the exact stats) stug has better rotation, speed and accel compared to kv-8.

But does that actually happen in game though. Theory and practice are not the same.

??

Check the context of the conversaiton.

The reality is that both sides makes use of light vehicles and thus a direct comparison is weird cause there's no equivalent to the T70 for OH.

The point is, you don't rush a T34-76 unless you are already dominating (at which point a T70 would just seal the deal) cause there's no strategic advantage when a PIV arrives at the same time. On the other hand, a KV1, even if it takes more resources, will give you a clear edge over the PIV. Cause even if there's a window of opportunity of facing 2 PIV vs 1 KV, having a single complementary Zis at hand will keep them at bay.

??

Check the context of the conversaiton.

The reality is that both sides makes use of light vehicles and thus a direct comparison is weird cause there's no equivalent to the T70 for OH.

The point is, you don't rush a T34-76 unless you are already dominating (at which point a T70 would just seal the deal) cause there's no strategic advantage when a PIV arrives at the same time. On the other hand, a KV1, even if it takes more resources, will give you a clear edge over the PIV. Cause even if there's a window of opportunity of facing 2 PIV vs 1 KV, having a single complementary Zis at hand will keep them at bay.

Oh, I read.
the point is this is still theory. there are no consideration for units and dynamic map control. Saying that a p4 can come earlier than a t34/76 is only possible in theory where all you do is tech and have equal map control.
In real game unless you as ostheer had a significantly better game you P4 will not come out sooner than a soviet player t34/76. Even if you skip 222/251 and your opponent goes for t70.

Oh, I read.
the point is this is still theory. there are no consideration for units and dynamic map control. Saying that a p4 can come earlier than a t34/76 is only possible in theory where all you do is tech and have equal map control.
In real game unless you as ostheer had a significantly better game you P4 will not come out sooner than a soviet player t34/76. Even if you skip 222/251 and your opponent goes for t70.

What? The general dynamic for an even game is that OH slightly pushes ahead when they get a T2 LV and then SU recovers when they get a T70 out. Then a PIV arrives and it equalises with whatever vehicle soviet decides to go for.

You don't need to believe me. Just go to either A_E or Danes channel and check what the majority of OH vs SU looks like.


In a real game both sides utilises light vehicles. In a real game, you don't skip getting medics and upgrades.
If both sides decides to skip the light vehicle phase (THEORY), then you are not getting a faster T34 compared to a PIV.


Edit: From Dane's channel. Last 10 1v1 OH vs SU.

1: 222 > T70 > Command PIV > T34
2: 222 > T70 > PIV > T34
3: 222 > Cmd PIV > T34
4: 250 HT > T70 > Ostwind > T34
5: FHT > 222 > T70 > PIV > Stug > Kv1
6: 222 > T70 > T34 > PIV
7: M5 Assault Guard > T70 > PIV > PIV > PW > M4C
8: 222 > T70 > PIV > B4
9: 222 > M5 Quad > PIV > M4C
10: 222 > T70 > PIV > KV1