Some Penal Idea

I think it is time to finally address the Elephant in the room and admit that Penal are simply BADLY designed and adding more bandaids in pile of bandaids will simply not solve the problem.

Penal are more than fine. The problem remain T1 and not Penal.

Did the Winter Balance Patch make you change your mind?

BAR Penals roflmao

Did the Winter Balance Patch make you change your mind?

Not really I have always said that badly designed.

They are not however UP in any way thus they are "fine" when it comes to power level.

(I am use the term fine because I would rather avoid yet another debated about Penal power level).

They are actually cheaper and arrive earlier than g43 Fuss while about the same power level from vet 1-3, and some people claim g43 Fuss are OP.

Penal are more than fine. The problem remain T1 and not Penal.

Not really I have always said that badly designed.

They are not however UP in any way thus they are "fine". (I am use the term fine because I would rather avoid yet another debated about Penal power level).

They are actually cheaper and arrive earlier than Fuss while about the same power level from vet 1-3.

Penals and T1 are not separable at this point anymore.
Unless your suggestion is to move the ATG to the HQ and unlock it with both T1 and T2, Penals need to fill in for a lot of roles that Axis get basically by default.
Also, late game Penals caused higher bleed than other main lines (basically other units in general), that's why the current patch addressed this with reducing reinforcement costs in the late game.

Not really I have always said that badly designed.

They are not however UP in any way thus they are "fine" when it comes to power level.

So this is why they just got buffed?
Because they were "fine"?
Why do you think they needed to be buffed then? Mod team loves soviets?

(I am use the term fine because I would rather avoid yet another debated about Penal power level).

Literally everyone who knows you here on .org knows full well you have a raging hate boner against penals.
No need to try to hide the obvious.

They are actually cheaper and arrive earlier than g43 Fuss while about the same power level from vet 1-3, and some people claim g43 Fuss are OP.

They have nowhere near the utility of PFs and much weaker and more expensive HMG backing them up IF they have an MG behind them at all.

Stop looking at unit as if nothing else existed but that unit and what it goes against and start noticing the fact that there is a whole army that performs different behind that unit.

Penals and T1 are not separable at this point anymore.
Unless your suggestion is to move the ATG to the HQ and unlock it with both T1 and T2, Penals need to fill in for a lot of roles that Axis get basically by default.
Also, late game Penals caused higher bleed than other main lines (basically other units in general), that's why the current patch addressed this with reducing reinforcement costs in the late game.

Exactly my point, expecting Penal to carry the T1 build on their own is bad design.

Soviets need non doc AT infantry. Penals are fine, as are.

So this is why they just got buffed?
Because they were "fine"?
Why do you think they needed to be buffed then? Mod team loves soviets?

Because of the bad design of T1 and why are talking pre patch, the game has been patched time to load and updated you game.

Literally everyone who knows you here on .org knows full well you have a raging hate boner against penals.
No need to try to hide the obvious.

Literally everyone who knows you here on .org knows full well you have a total bias about Soviet.
You even argue that Win industry was fine.
No need to try to hide the obvious.

They have nowhere near the utility of PFs and much weaker and more expensive HMG backing them up IF they have an MG behind them at all.

HMG argument hold no water at all, with the same logic they can have an flamer/M3 or sniper backing which OKW can not.

Stop looking at unit as if nothing else existed but that unit and what it goes against and start noticing the fact that there is a whole army that performs different behind that unit.

Stop looking at unit with Soviet bias. Soviet have a much full roster than OKW.

In the end of they day I am not sure with what you disagree:
That G43 PF are not more expensive?
That the power level of G43 PF and Penal is not about the same?
That some people find G43 PF OP?
Or are just disagreeing because it a habit for you?

Exactly my point, expecting Penal to carry the T1 build on their own is bad design.

Yes, but comparing them to Panzerfusiliers without any sidenote is misleading, since those don't need to carry their complete faction. They are backed up by MGs, ATGs and a stronger early game Volksgrenadier to mitigate their early weakness.

And bad design or not, we will likely have to live with it since changing Soviet T1 is not just a slight tweak but a complete faction rework. And this we won't get unless Relic decides to be genourous and allows another big faction patch. Therefore, we have to make the best out of this and take into account that Penals need to carry their T1.


But back to OPs suggestion:
I agree that PPShs on Penals are highly unattractive. A different upgrade path would be nice, but I am not sure what would be the best. PPShs clash with Shocks, DP28 potentially with Guards. A bar-like DP28 would be a bit weird in the game logic since only elites can usually shoot MGs on the move. A Pathfinder-like sniper rifle could lead to a terminator squad given Penals decent DPS. Plus it clashes with the sniper in T1. That's a tough nut.

But what if this crate just gave Penals some utility upgrade? Would also be weird logic wise, but it's maybe a way to go.

Yes, but comparing them to Panzerfusiliers without any sidenote is misleading, since those don't need to carry their complete faction. They are backed up by MGs, ATGs and a stronger early game Volksgrenadier to mitigate their early weakness.

And bad design or not, we will likely have to live with it since changing Soviet T1 is not just a slight tweak but a complete faction rework. And this we won't get unless Relic decides to be genourous and allows another big faction patch. Therefore, we have to make the best out of this and take into account that Penals need to carry their T1.

There was plenty of sides notes. I clearly said T1/Penal are badly designed.

I posted that Penal power level is "fine" and point out that have similar power level with G43 PF while being considerably cheaper.

But back to OPs suggestion:
I agree that PPShs on Penals are highly unattractive. A different upgrade path would be nice, but I am not sure what would be the best. PPShs clash with Shocks, DP28 potentially with Guards. A bar-like DP28 would be a bit weird in the game logic since only elites can usually shoot MGs on the move. A Pathfinder-like sniper rifle could lead to a terminator squad given Penals decent DPS. Plus it clashes with the sniper in T1. That's a tough nut.

But what if this crate just gave Penals some utility upgrade? Would also be weird logic wise, but it's maybe a way to go.

The ability is simply badly designed and should be redesigned.

An ability giving weapons/munition to allies with no counter play should not be in the game.

I say no to lmgs, but one could work with to the last man to tune them if they felt the need. Although they now benifit from mobilize reserves so I'd hold off on some more buffs until we see how that sots

As DP28，I think it better replace 7men Consript upgrade be default upgrade，Commander PPsh ability maybe could rework，for Consript can upgrade 4xppsh，for penal can upgrade 2x moving shot DP28
And reduce reinforcement cost be passive buff for Rapid Conscription

BAR Penals roflmao

Yeah, but it's not going to be as strong as a bar since penal have better vet along with to the last man I was hoping the balance team would give it balanced values. But crates serve no purpose for Penals. It's just an idea to give them something more appropriate for their combat role.

Soviets need non doc AT infantry. Penals are fine, as are.

I think I made the mistake of naming the title like this. This is more about the weapons crates you get from sov air borne doc more than anything else.

A bar-like DP28 would be a bit weird in the game logic since only elites can usually shoot MGs on the move.

I'm pretty sure every squad in the game can fire BAR's on the move. As well as the new Vickers K. They are not MG's these things are more like Assault rifles with long range focus a more beafy version of volk stgs if you will. In my head the stat would be 10 dps at close and about 3 dps at long(max). It's a buff at all ranges with counter play options a plenty.

I say no to lmgs, but one could work with to the last man to tune them if they felt the need. Although they now benifit from mobilize reserves so I'd hold off on some more buffs until we see how that sots

It's not an lmg. it's more like the BAR or stronger volk stgs. And these are doctrinal too.

I'm pretty sure every squad in the game can fire BAR's on the move. As well as the new Vickers K. They are not MG's these things are more like Assault rifles with long range focus a more beafy version of volk stgs if you will. In my head the stat would be 10 dps at close and about 3 dps at long(max). It's a buff at all ranges with counter play options a plenty.

Yes, but visually it will still be an MG. And firing those on the move is usually reserved to elite infantry.
It's a rather minor point though. There are so many confusing things already in the game that this will probably not matter.

What is consistent though is that MGs get better at longer range. We have different weapon profiles for visually the same weapon, but at least the general "character" of the profile is the same. A DP28 would be the first to completely change that.

Yes, but visually it will still be an MG. And firing those on the move is usually reserved to elite infantry.
It's a rather minor point though. There are so many confusing things already in the game that this will probably not matter.

What is consistent though is that MGs get better at longer range. We have different weapon profiles for visually the same weapon, but at least the general "character" of the profile is the same. A DP28 would be the first to completely change that.

What about Vicker K though. I think it already beat my dp-28 to it.

What about Vicker K though. I think it already beat my dp-28 to it.

To be honest I don't know when I used that weapon the last time, so I can't really comment on that one specifically apart from calculations.
I think it uses the same weapon profile as other LMGs though.

To be honest I don't know when I used that weapon the last time, so I can't really comment on that one specifically apart from calculations.
I think it uses the same weapon profile as other LMGs though.

He talks about new Vickers K, which is reworked into a bar-like weapon.