Late game performances of Volksgrenadiers and veterancy

You know this is the same argument that people used in CoH 1 when talking about volks to grens. It didnt work back then. By the time you get obers you liklely invested minutes worth in mp xp and ammo in them.

At the moment the ostheer grens will do a better job

And yet, dynamics between volks getting obsolete and replaced by grens was unchanged wehr design in coh1.
People used the same argument, because it was reality.
Couple of people didn't wanted to accept the reality, but that didn't changed reality, they were just that much more salty on the long run.

And we have pretty much the exact same thing here with volks and obers, except now obers don't make volks completely obsolete, but serve as force multiplier that faction is supposed to relay on in infantry combat.

If you want volks to scale like other mainlines, yeet obers into a doctrine, because they would have no place nor right to remain stock anymore.

And yet, dynamics between volks getting obsolete and replaced by grens was unchanged wehr design in coh1.
People used the same argument, because it was reality.
Couple of people didn't wanted to accept the reality, but that didn't changed reality, they were just that much more salty on the long run.

Relic realized it was a bad design as well and gave the volks mp40´s a ham-fisted buff that allowed them to out dps rifles at close and midrange

And we have pretty much the exact same thing here with volks and obers, except now obers don't make volks completely obsolete, but serve as force multiplier that faction is supposed to relay on in infantry combat.

Do you understand what force multiplier even means?

Relic realized it was a bad design as well and gave the volks mp40´s a ham-fisted buff that allowed them to out dps rifles at close and midrange

They did.
And everything I have said was in context of volks already having mp40s, because mp40s have not changed anything about their relevance, you still killed them for zombie grens.

Do you understand what force multiplier even means?

Do you?
Obers aren't supposed to replace volks, but assist them, providing what they lack, firepower.

You know this is the same argument that people used in CoH 1 when talking about volks to grens. It didnt work back then. By the time you get obers you liklely invested minutes worth in mp xp and ammo in them.

At the moment the ostheer grens will do a better job

You simply cant buff volks to other main line levels without throwing obers under the bus and subsuquently them needing buffs to be viable or just removing them to doctrines. Unlike volks rifles sections and cons/penals dont have stock elite inf in the faction or a stock super heavy with strong ai.
Grens have pgrens and ostwind/brumbar to do the heavy ai work.

Kubel i think synergieses well with volks, it has good long range damage doesnt cost much and doesnt bleed you and can be missed late game, where obers step in and can do the ai damage after getting some buff to timing. Obers in swhere is quite late imo

Do you?
Obers aren't supposed to replace volks, but assist them, providing what they lack, firepower.

That isnt what a Force Multiplier is, so no, you don't.

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The Ober comparison doesn't work because Volks don't necessarily need to have their combat performance buffed, they just need to be more efficient for their cost late game. Clearly there is something wrong when the more expensive squad (260 MP + 60 muni) loses to the cheaper squad (240 MP + 50 muni + 20 MP). So if Volks aren't buffed to be stronger than 7-man Cons, then they need to be buffed to be cheaper than 7-man Cons so they are more efficient.

Alternatively, buff them so they can at least beat out 7-man Cons at one specific range whether it be short or long as Cons currently will win every single engagement.

If you want volks to scale like other mainlines, yeet obers into a doctrine, because they would have no place nor right to remain stock anymore.

I mean if Volks and Grens could be scaled to the same power of Penals or Sections i'd be more than willing to yeet Ober's and PG's. Should should also be buffed to the same Level as LMG Para's or Ranges as they are now doctrinal Elites. Would you like that change?? I mean that's the reason people say why allied main and elite infantry should be stronger, no???

I mean if Volks and Grens could be scaled to the same power of Penals or Sections i'd be more than willing to yeet Ober's and PG's. Should should also be buffed to the same Level as LMG Para's or Ranges as they are now doctrinal Elites. Would you like that change?? I mean that's the reason people say why allied main and elite infantry should be stronger, no???

+1, Volks and Grens have snares too

The Ober comparison doesn't work because Volks don't necessarily need to have their combat performance buffed, they just need to be more efficient for their cost late game. Clearly there is something wrong when the more expensive squad (260 MP + 60 muni) loses to the cheaper squad (240 MP + 50 muni + 20 MP). So if Volks aren't buffed to be stronger than 7-man Cons, then they need to be buffed to be cheaper than 7-man Cons so they are more efficient.

I dont see how it doesnt work. Make volks more effecient or stronger with both obers get hurt, you dont have space in your build or popcapped if all you need is volks. Volks where designed as a cheap meat shield. Loosing shreck they became cons 2.0 en nearly every aspect against their and the faction design.

Imo directly comparing volks to cons (without snare/molly) doesnt work. Okw has a much stronger medium,2 powerfull ai vehicles wich can come earlier mostly, a better mg (wich is cheaper then the maxim) and a stock super heavy and elite inf to top it off. And cons being better only at the late game is imbalanced somehow? This doesnt make sense to me.

I dont see how it doesnt work. Make volks more effecient or stronger with both obers get hurt, you dont have space in your build or popcapped if all you need is volks.

No, you can't only have Volks. I specifically stated that Volks don't have to be buffed combat wise, they just need to be more efficient than they are now, so they could be made cheaper. If you only build Volks you're just going to lose every single infantry engagement. I'm fine with that but only if Volks are also cheaper. It makes no sense that the more expensive unit should lose to the cheaper unit and at ALL ranges. Even double Bren sections will lose to Volks at close range, and double BAR Rifles will lose to Volks at long range.

The Ober comparison doesn't work because Volks don't necessarily need to have their combat performance buffed, they just need to be more efficient for their cost late game. Clearly there is something wrong when the more expensive squad (260 MP + 60 muni) loses to the cheaper squad (240 MP + 50 muni + 20 MP). So if Volks aren't buffed to be stronger than 7-man Cons, then they need to be buffed to be cheaper than 7-man Cons so they are more efficient.

Alternatively, buff them so they can at least beat out 7-man Cons at one specific range whether it be short or long as Cons currently will win every single engagement.

240 MP + 50 muni + 18 MP

No, you can't only have Volks. I specifically stated that Volks don't have to be buffed combat wise, they just need to be more efficient than they are now, so they could be made cheaper. If you only build Volks you're just going to lose every single infantry engagement. I'm fine with that but only if Volks are also cheaper. It makes no sense that the more expensive unit should lose to the cheaper unit and at ALL ranges. Even double Bren sections will lose to Volks at close range, and double BAR Rifles will lose to Volks at long range.

Volks reaching their peak is earlier and cheaper and they always can get forward retreat. Cons require full tech to reach their full potential meaning until then stg volks beat cons at range and massacre them up close. Volks also force cons or any soviet unit out of cover easier then the other way around with their faster and longer range molly.
Only when cons go 7th man after t4 is build do they become so good they outshine volks and grens esp in outlasting the enemy wich is a intended role for them.

Also the maxim is kept at 260mp despite being infirior to both axis mg's to prevent spamming them. Volks costing more early on then cons is imo a simalar situation.

Volks reaching their peak is earlier and cheaper and they always can get forward retreat. Cons require full tech to reach their full potential meaning until then stg volks beat cons at range and massacre them up close. Volks also force cons or any soviet unit out of cover easier then the other way around with their faster and longer range molly.
Only when cons go 7th man after t4 is build do they become so good they outshine volks and grens esp in outlasting the enemy wich is a intended role for them.

Also the maxim is kept at 260mp despite being infirior to both axis mg's to prevent spamming them. Volks costing more early on then cons is imo a simalar situation.

It doesn't matter if they reach their peak earlier/cheaper, the fact of the matter is that you can't have an infantry unit that loses at every single range to another AND have it be more expensive. Again, Volks can still defeat double BAR Rifles and double Bren sections at specific ranges even though Sections and Rifles are much more expensive.

It doesn't matter if they reach their peak earlier/cheaper, the fact of the matter is that you can't have an infantry unit that loses at every single range to another AND have it be more expensive. Again, Volks can still defeat double BAR Rifles and double Bren sections at specific ranges even though Sections and Rifles are much more expensive.

While I agree that volks late game are the weakest unit... considering who wins/loses

I mean.... one unit will always win. A 120 muni and 280 MP unit has to win vs a 260 MP/60 muni unit. Always. A lot of people think that late game, units have to trade equally until they both have to retreat. Why?

I mean, early on, OKW stats with sturms which can turn the tide since volks:
vs IS: lose long range, hence you need to be the first one in cover or use sturms to 2v1 the IS squad and then establish the foothold and force the brit to assault your cover position

vs rifles: win long range only
vs cons: lose only short range

So early game is quite balanced. OKW has a bit of a harder time, true, so they start with a unit that can shred close range any other mainline unit and trade evenly behind cover at mid range. So you have to survive that period. Then you get your first power spike, that can occur on the field and does not require retreat to base (a big plus) and you start winning engagements.
Then later on, volks become inferior and obers take over as the shred machines. Considering the armour and stuka that supports volks, I'd say it all evens out.
What you could do to volks without breaking anything is buff their vet 5 survivability. In other words, not add offensive capabilities, but defensive ones. That way you can hold your ground for longer to engage stuka or something else to dislodge the attack or make it easier for vetted volks to close in on a covered squad to again, engage something else to dislodge it.

EDIT: If this site is truthful: https://coh2stats.com/stats/week/1615161600/3v3/wgerman then you can clearly see the 50/50 win rate on 1v1 and a respectable lead in the 2v2 and a massive 57% winrate in 3v3 and 4v4.

If I remember correctly, when OKW came out it was a "survive until later on" kind of a thing. A faction that peaks later

And agree with Carmine. If anything, obers need a buff, not volks.

It doesn't matter if they reach their peak earlier/cheaper, the fact of the matter is that you can't have an infantry unit that loses at every single range to another AND have it be more expensive. Again, Volks can still defeat double BAR Rifles and double Bren sections at specific ranges even though Sections and Rifles are much more expensive.

Until 7th man volks beat conscript at every range. Then their roles reverse because soviets stock medium is by far infirior, they need doctrines to get a heavy tank and ai upgrades or better inf unlike okw.
All the while volks doing a better anti garrison job and having more viable options in the faction stock, namely obers kt. So them loosing at that stage vs cons is not wrong because of this. Obers need a buff not volks.

We need to stop comparing units in a vacuum. This is pointles. Like i said before the maxim is more expensive then the m34 and cost the same as they mg 42 but is infirior throughout the game. Shoundt it be better then the mg34 at some point in the game because of its cost? No because people are manicly afraid of maxim spamm.

All the while volks doing a better anti garrison job...
...
We need to stop comparing units in a vacuum.

This is because soviets have a much higher number of other non doc anti garrison options. Engineer flamers, mortar, zis, su76 and katy while okw only has the LEIG and the stuka.

If volks role is to be a meat shield for obers they do a terrible job at it. They have the worst max vet RA of all the mainline infantry while not benefitting from very cheap reinforce costs nor sporting good damage output. I also see people saying volks beat riflemen at long range. This is only true at the absolute maximum engagement ranges.

This is because soviets have a much higher number of other non doc anti garrison options. Engineer flamers, mortar, zis, su76 and katy while okw only has the LEIG and the stuka.

If volks role is to be a meat shield for obers they do a terrible job at it. They have the worst max vet RA of all the mainline infantry while not benefitting from very cheap reinforce costs nor sporting good damage output. I also see people saying volks beat riflemen at long range. This is only true at the absolute maximum engagement ranges.

I am all for buffing volk rec acc and self heal buffed to vet 3 or 4 to help their shielding for obers. Preferably their stg's go to doctrines. This way with obers coming earlier they both have a place unlike now.

You simply cant buff volks to other main line levels without throwing obers under the bus and subsuquently them needing buffs to be viable or just removing them to doctrines.

Why not ? at this moment the ostheer does everything better then the okw. Better mainline infantry,better support weapons and a better tank and lv selection.

Until 7th man volks beat conscript at every range. Then their roles reverse because soviets stock medium is by far infirior, they need doctrines to get a heavy tank and ai upgrades or better inf unlike okw.
All the while volks doing a better anti garrison job and having more viable options in the faction stock, namely obers kt. So them loosing at that stage vs cons is not wrong because of this. Obers need a buff not volks.

We need to stop comparing units in a vacuum. This is pointles. Like i said before the maxim is more expensive then the m34 and cost the same as they mg 42 but is infirior throughout the game. Shoundt it be better then the mg34 at some point in the game because of its cost? No because people are manicly afraid of maxim spamm.

The reason why the Maxim is allowed to cost the same as the MG42 and more than the MG34 is because the Maxim is not the player's primary source of anti-infantry power. In other words, it only sucks in comparison because its not important enough to be the focal point of the faction. You could make the same argument with Obers being the main source of anti infantry but this argument is flawed because Obers come out late, are not mainlines, are expensive, and mostly importantly, limited to 1 squad in most cases. I'm comparing Volks and 7-man Cons in a vacuum because there is nothing wrong with the overall Soviet vs. OKW matchup. The only thing wrong is the game-defying matchup between late game Volks and late game Cons.

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I believe you are misinterpreting me. Volks early game are totally fine, they are one of the best early mainlines. And in the late game against USF and UKF, yes they are bad but their performance is acceptable because at least there is a range where they can beat Sections and Rifles, not to mention they are much cheaper as well. The only problem is the late game Volks vs. late game Cons matchup where assuming equal circumstances the 7-man Cons will win every engagement no matter what range Volks engage at AND Cons are cheaper to recruit, upgrade, and reinforce. This is the only thing that is really gamebreaking. The argument that Obers are supposed to replace Volks doesn't work, at least in 1v1, for a multitude of reasons:
1 - Poor timing.
2 - Obers need heavy investment to be effective.
3 - Obers bleed heavily, and can not snare.
4 - Most importantly, only one Ober squad can be trained realistically.
An Ober buff is the worst thing to ask for because it would have minimal impact in 1v1 while causing a multitude of problems in larger team games. A light Volks scaling buff/rework, on the other hand, will not cause any problems in larger team games, although it must be ensured that the buff doesn't change the Volks vs. Rifles/Sections matchup too much.