King Tiger for Ostheer in the Commander update.

I would agree if there is a real support for the game but it doesn't have this support.

Every exchange between units doesn't look right because it will make both factions less unique, even if u made some changes to the unit, I mean KT is one of the key units that make OKW unique, adding it to Ostheer or maybe adding a better version of it to Ostheer will only make OKW less unique and will make both factions more similar because as I said their is no big support and no new units will be added to differentiate the factions.

Until Relic re-enable model editing and importing sadly the exchange of units, not just for the Germans, with a new and fresh coat of paint is the only possible way to get more content right now.

Take the Tiger and 223 for the OKW as example, both are Ostheer units but with different skins and abilities as doctrinal units for the OKW and they each fulfill their own specific role adding something unique to both the Army and the game in general so that's a good thing if you ask me, and many other people as well.

Until Relic re-enable model editing and importing sadly the exchange of units, not just for the Germans, with a new and fresh coat of paint is the only possible way to get more content right now.

Take the Tiger and 223 for the OKW as example, both are Ostheer units but with different skins and abilities as doctrinal units for the OKW and they each fulfill their own specific role adding something unique to both the Army and the game in general so that's a good thing if you ask me, and many other people as well.

I think 223 was an Ostheer unit then it was removed for Ostheer and replaced with 222, even before giving 223 to OKW (I may be wrong)
but anyway it is really not beautiful to see this units with only 1 skin.

Right now this units are shared between OKW and Ostheer.
- Puma
- Panzer 4 ausf
- Tiger(different variants)
- Ostwind
- Panzer 5
- Maybe 223? (I don't know if Ostheer still has it.)
- Lefh
- Pak 43
- Bunkers
- Maybe I forgot something


So, yes I agree with you that swapping units with new skins and maybe even with some different states will add something unique to both armies but eventually will make one unique army (German army) and only few reasons will remain to justify having two Germans faction (Maybe from the beginning it was better to make one German and Italian/Japanese faction), so as you see German factions already have 8/9 shared units unlike any other faction, that is why I am not a fan of swapping more units, and I know not everyone will agree with that.

I think 223 was an Ostheer unit then it was removed for Ostheer and replaced with 222, even before giving 223 to OKW (I may be wrong)
but anyway it is really not beautiful to see this units with only 1 skin.

Right now this units are shared between OKW and Ostheer.
- Puma
- Panzer 4 ausf
- Tiger(different variants)
- Ostwind
- Panzer 5
- Maybe 223? (I don't know if Ostheer still has it.)
- Lefh
- Pak 43
- Bunkers
- Maybe I forgot something


So, yes I agree with you that swapping units with new skins and maybe even with some different states will add something unique to both armies but eventually will make one unique army (German army) and only few reasons will remain to justify having two Germans faction (Maybe from the beginning it was better to make one German and Italian/Japanese faction), so as you see German factions already have 8/9 shared units unlike any other faction, that is why I am not a fan of swapping more units, and I know not everyone will agree with that.

Nope, the 223 is unique to the OKW because it only shows up in the Ardennes Assault campaign as an OKW unit.

But it's basis, the 221, is an Ostheer unit.

And there are many shared units between the 2 Armies simply because they're German, so it's really unavoidable unless you plan on making about 20 more models to make them "unique" which I don't think Relic will be willing to do.

Plus we've reached to the point where both the British and Soviets are using USF, and in the case of the Soviets in the future possibly, again British vehicles and weapons.

2 great examples being the British Lend-Lease Regiment and the Soviets receiving the .50 cal in their respective Lend-Lease commander this update.

So again, it's inevitable we get to this point because of the limited modding tools we have, there might even be a thing as "captured" vehicles and weapons at some point in the future as well like for example a Beutepanzer T-34 for Ostheer like I've seen so many people suggest before.

Nope, the 223 is unique to the OKW because it only shows up in the Ardennes Assault campaign as an OKW unit.

But it's basis, the 221, is an Ostheer unit.

And there are many shared units between the 2 Armies simply because they're German, so it's really unavoidable unless you plan on making about 20 more models to make them "unique" which I don't think Relic will be willing to do.

Plus we've reached to the point where both the British and Soviets are using USF, and in the case of the Soviets in the future possibly, again British vehicles and weapons.

2 great examples being the British Lend-Lease Regiment and the Soviets receiving the .50 cal in their respective Lend-Lease commander this update.

So again, it's inevitable we get to this point because of the limited modding tools we have, there might even be a thing as "captured" vehicles and weapons at some point in the future as well like for example a Beutepanzer T-34 for Ostheer like I've seen so many people suggest before.

Yes I said 223, but I meant 221 , I don't think Ostheer still has access to 221 and yes I agree with you and I know it is unavoidable ,it already happened multiple times, I would love to see OKW sniper in commanders for example, I am just saying why there is problems with this currently, but who knows

Yes I said 223, but I meant 221 , I don't think Ostheer still has access to 221 and yes I agree with you and I know it is unavoidable ,it already happened multiple times, I would love to see OKW sniper in commanders for example, I am just saying why there is problems with this currently, but who knows

Again, the 221 is an Ostheer vehicle, the 223 is a version of the 221 with a radio antenna but only for the OKW.

The Ostheer only has the 221 and 222, not access to the 223.

I know it's very confusing but that's how they went with naming them back in the 40s, for some reason.

Anyway, we're all aware of the problems but Relic hasn't made it easy on us sadly.

If they did the Japanese, Italians and so forth as well as allowing model editing and importing there's be less issues but alas we're stuck with 2 German Armies, one for each front, and 3 Allied ones with not a lot of new content to go around other than borrowing from each other at this point.

I agree with Olfin, having a distinct identity for each faction is important for the health of the game, rather than making things more and more homogeneous. Players should have a reason to feel excited about and attached to their faction, and having unique super heavy units is a good way to achieve this.
Supposed we add all OST units to OKW and vice versa. Do we have now more contents? No, we just have two bloated factions that are the same.
If a game can no longer be updated with new contents, then let us just focus on balance and be happy with how it has turned out, rather than screwing around too much with faction roster/design for the sake of new flavor.

But the distinct identity is nonsense when OKW already got the Wehrmacht Tiger. Why is it OKW gets the Wehrmacht Tiger, but Wehrmacht does not get the King Tiger? Seems a bit unfair if you ask me.

I agree with Olfin, having a distinct identity for each faction is important for the health of the game, rather than making things more and more homogeneous. Players should have a reason to feel excited about and attached to their faction, and having unique super heavy units is a good way to achieve this.
Supposed we add all OST units to OKW and vice versa. Do we have now more contents? No, we just have two bloated factions that are the same.
If a game can no longer be updated with new contents, then let us just focus on balance and be happy with how it has turned out, rather than screwing around too much with faction roster/design for the sake of new flavor.

Sure.

Let's just remove, hold up let me just get his list:

- Puma
- Panzer 4 Ausf. J (Should be H)
- Tiger
- Ostwind
- Panther
- 221
- 223
- LefH 18
- Pak 43
- Bunkers

From both factions and then we'll have completely unique factions with absolutely no overlap.

Now go have fun with 2 very barebone factions.

But wait while we're at it why stop here? Why not remove the Lend-Lease commanders from the Allies as well.

No M5 Halftrack, .50 cal, M3A1 Scout Car, M4C (Should be M4A2 but whatever) Sherman from the Soviets and the M10 as well as the M5 since they've already removed the mortar from the British as well.

Then we'll have completely unique factions with 100% absolutely no overlap whatsoever so we can all feel special and unique about our choices.

I'm guessing many people will be happy then when we remove content instead of adding more.

So I was going to make a mod myself to test out my idea but remembered there was already something like it in the workshop so I just decided to test out, here's the link for anybody else that's interested: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1602620176

And here's my video:


I have edited the announcement voiceline in from this video gracefully provided by GachiGasm to simulate how it would sound when actually implemented in the game: https://youtu.be/49AInridex8?t=1087

And to be honest it fits right in with all of the sounds and everything really works perfectly.

You pretty much can't tell it even comes from the OKW.

You pretty much can't tell it even comes from the OKW.

I mean, to be fair, you could switch literally any vehicle between OKW and OST and it wouldn't seem out of place, they are literally the same faction after all.

You could probably even do the same for any of the Infantry, too.

I mean, to be fair, you could switch literally any vehicle between OKW and OST and it wouldn't seem out of place, they are literally the same faction after all.

You could probably even do the same for any of the Infantry, too.

Yeah but I mean the voices also seem to be as well.

It doesn't sound out of place if you ask me like maybe something like the Jagpanzer IV would for example, even tho that would probably also be a good fit for the Ostheer.

Sure.

Let's just remove, hold up let me just get his list:

- Puma
- Panzer 4 Ausf. J (Should be H)
- Tiger
- Ostwind
- Panther
- 221
- 223
- LefH 18
- Pak 43
- Bunkers

From both factions and then we'll have completely unique factions with absolutely no overlap.

Now go have fun with 2 very barebone factions.

But wait while we're at it why stop here? Why not remove the Lend-Lease commanders from the Allies as well.

No M5 Halftrack, .50 cal, M3A1 Scout Car, M4C (Should be M4A2 but whatever) Sherman from the Soviets and the M10 as well as the M5 since they've already removed the mortar from the British as well.

Then we'll have completely unique factions with 100% absolutely no overlap whatsoever so we can all feel special and unique about our choices.

I'm guessing many people will be happy then when we remove content instead of adding more.

I didn't suggest to remove anything, so there's no need to be cynical about it. Exactly because there's a large amount of overlap already, having more overlap will erode the faction identity. I thought it is a perfectly fair point to make.

I didn't suggest to remove anything, so there's no need to be cynical about it. Exactly because there's a large amount of overlap already, having more overlap will erode the faction identity. I thought it is a perfectly fair point to make.

It would have been a fair point to make oh I don't know, maybe a few years ago before the community development team took over.

Now we have so much of your supposed "overlap" that it doesn't really matter at this point.

Both factions are German and they will share a lot of units, that's a given.

But even if their rosters were exactly 1:1 they would still not be the same Army/faction and would still unique and diverse enough to be played very much differently.

Comparing a mostly Eastern Front focused defensive sort of faction to a late 1944 mostly offensive Western one again, even if their rosters did overlap so much is just foolish and silly.

They will never feel or play the same, or similar for a matter of fact, as much as people would like to overexaggerate it.

Does Ostheer really need more doctrines with heavy tanks? I feel there are far more interesting units or abilities Ostheer could get than another heavy tank doctrine.

Does Ostheer really need more doctrines with heavy tanks? I feel there are far more interesting units or abilities Ostheer could get than another heavy tank doctrine.

This new King Tiger would be like I already said for something like Mobile Defense since it fits it's theme.

Something to bring the commander up back to scale again and make it usable, or as Sander said, Festung doctrine again for the same reasons.

There are a fair few doctrines struggling right now from what I'm seeing, and I think many of us can agree on that point, and so I think this is also a fair suggestion on how to alleviate that for at least maybe a couple if not more.

It would have been a fair point to make oh I don't know, maybe a few years ago before the community development team took over.

Now we have so much of your supposed "overlap" that it doesn't really matter at this point.

Both factions are German and they will share a lot of units, that's a given.

But even if their rosters were exactly 1:1 they would still not be the same Army/faction and would still unique and diverse enough to be played very much differently.

Comparing a mostly Eastern Front focused defensive sort of faction to a late 1944 mostly offensive Western one again, even if their rosters did overlap so much is just foolish and silly.

They will never feel or play the same, or similar for a matter of fact, as much as people would like to overexaggerate it.

So now anyone voicing their concern about unit roster overlapping too much is foolish and silly? You are not aware that people can disagree with you, are you?
I can write more about why I think that way, but that would be a waste of time to engage in this conversation. Do what you want.

So now anyone voicing their concern about unit roster overlapping too much is foolish and silly? You are not aware that people can disagree with you, are you?
I can write more about why I think that way, but that would be a waste of time to engage in this conversation. Do what you want.

If you're trying to say that I want to silence/censor people or the discussion you're very much mistaken.

I'm just putting forth my opinion in your discussion about the overlap, nothing more.

Of course we're all different individuals with our own experiences and views on things so there's nothing bad about discussing things.

However I have been playing Company of Heroes since 2006 when it first originally released and with the Panzer Elite in Opposing Front launching about an year later it was fairly obvious to everyone that there was going to be overlap between the 2 Armies since again, they're both German.

So you had the basic infantry, that is the Panzergrenadiers for PE and Grenadiers for WH being fairly similar, both using the Panther tank, both having halftracks and armored cars that somewhat filled the same roles and so on and so forth.

But the overlap of units or at least similar units fulfilling the same role is unavoidable due to obvious reasons and I don't think a lot of people batted an eye about it back then, including me, and so I just think that it's being over-exaggerated by people on here and I don't mean you specifically either.

With quite how many neat toys the Germans had in WWII, I do think it's entirely possible to create two (Or even three) complete German factions that don't share a single thing, though there's no way that's happening in CoH2... and CoH3 (If it ever releases) will almost certainly have overlapping units as well, due to it decreasing development costs, and because some vehicles are just so iconic.

I'd personally /prefer/ no overlap, but I think that at this stage (Primarily because Lelic won't let us edit textures or import models, and because there's already a degree of overlap in the vanilla rosters) It's not something to be hugely concerned about. Arbitrarily limiting what the Balance Team can do in a vain effort to prevent further overlap is kind of going to do more harm than good at this point.

Ok so let's dial back our tone a bit and try again.

However I have been playing Company of Heroes since 2006 when it first originally released and with the Panzer Elite in Opposing Front launching about an year later it was fairly obvious to everyone that there was going to be overlap between the 2 Armies since again, they're both German.

You and me both, I am also a fan of the original game. Back then, PE didn't have Tiger or KT either. So when you really want to go with the heavy tanks, either for tactical reason or personal preference, Wehr is the better choice. This sets Wehr apart as a German faction that more specialises in general purpose and heavy tanks, whereas PE has a bigger focus on light and single-purpose vehicles e.g. their short PIVs only deal with infantry, Panthers/Hetzer/Jadgpanther only do well vs tanks.

I don't mind some overlap of roster and as you said, it is unavoidable. But I am arguing from the standpoint that it also shouldn't be too extensive. OKW right now is being perceived (design-wise) as the more "elite" of the two, hence they have the most elite infantry (Obersoldaten) and strongest super heavy (King Tiger). On the other hand, they don't have Brumbar and in many occasions, they may find themselves wanting a Wehr ally who can field that unit.

Of course we can then disagree on how necessary it is to maintain the remaining difference between the OST and OKW rosters.

With quite how many neat toys the Germans had in WWII, I do think it's entirely possible to create two (Or even three) complete German factions that don't share a single thing, though there's no way that's happening in CoH2... and CoH3 (If it ever releases) will almost certainly have overlapping units as well, due to it decreasing development costs, and because some vehicles are just so iconic.

I'd personally /prefer/ no overlap, but I think that at this stage (Primarily because Lelic won't let us edit textures or import models, and because there's already a degree of overlap in the vanilla rosters) It's not something to be hugely concerned about. Arbitrarily limiting what the Balance Team can do in a vain effort to prevent further overlap is kind of going to do more harm than good at this point.

Agreed, my point exactly as well.

I personally would have preferred something like an Italian-German Army with a scenario set somewhere in Africa/Sicily/Italy against the British or Canadians and that would have allowed for far more diversity and new units, as it was discussed for the original CoH before they decided to do Company of Heroes: Online, or at least that's what I read in an interview with the developers at it's 10th year anniversary.

Ok so let's dial back our tone a bit and try again.



You and me both, I am also a fan of the original game. Back then, PE didn't have Tiger or KT either. So when you really want to go with the heavy tanks, either for tactical reason or personal preference, Wehr is the better choice. This sets Wehr apart as a German faction that more specialises in general purpose and heavy tanks, whereas PE has a bigger focus on light and single-purpose vehicles e.g. their short PIVs only deal with infantry, Panthers/Hetzer/Jadgpanther only do well vs tanks.

I don't mind some overlap of roster and as you said, it is unavoidable. But I am arguing from the standpoint that it also shouldn't be too extensive. OKW right now is being perceived (design-wise) as the more "elite" of the two, hence they have the most elite infantry (Obersoldaten) and strongest super heavy (King Tiger). On the other hand, they don't have Brumbar and in many occasions, they may find themselves wanting a Wehr ally who can field that unit.

Of course we can then disagree on how necessary it is to maintain the remaining difference between the OST and OKW rosters.

Well, technically the PE did have a KT in 1 mission at Arnhem in it's Operation Market Garden campaign, and they also have the Jagdpanther which to be honest is probably better than the WH's KT because you have the Bergetiger to revive it with if it dies.

As far as the relationship between OKW and Ost here goes, again I agree with you and like Pip already said had there been more models in vanilla, or Relic just enabled us to edit and importing new ones there would be absolutely no trouble whatsoever.

But again, alas that's not the case and we're far too deep in the "overlap" game at this point so to speak to make a fuss about one faction using 1 or 2 or even more units from the other as part of a doctrine to spice things up, plus as it was already mentioned several times, the units themselves are not just blank copy-pastes but sometimes having entirely different purposes altogether like for example the 221 for OKW being more of a utility vehicle with it's 223 upgrade instead of the 221/222 of the Ostheer.

Another example of course could be the Tigers, Ost's Tiger is a heavy brawler type tank, OKW's Tiger is some sort of brawler/command tank hybrid so they sort of serve different purposes as well.

And in my opinion the same can be done for the King Tigers too.