Commander Update Beta 2021 - Soviet Feedback

First 76mm Sherman and T34/85 are both doctrinal, so you have to choose to get one of them.

Nope that is incorrect. One can choose out of 22 commanders.

Both have pretty much the same combat role, cost and timing while T34/76 differs a lot at all three criteria (including the fact that it can't go toe to toe vs a PZIV unlike the doctrinal choices).

Yes but one choose a commander with five abilities, one does not choose between T-34/85 and 76mm

You see? It really makes no sense to compare to T34/76. I know that you know that by yourself, why even saying that?

Once one chooses a commander one has to choose between building a stock unit or a doctrinal unit. So one does choose between T-34/76 and 76mm or Vanillas sherman and 76mm if playing USF.

In live 76mm Sherman is very effective tank with very fast firing Gun with ROF at vet 3 of 3.26 and can even fire faster with radio net. The unit does deserve a nerf either on base stat or on vet bonuses.

Sherman 76mm is not balanced against T-34/85 because it not fighting T-34/85 it is fighting PzIV and it replacing T-34/76.

Even if it balanced against T-34/85 it would mean that T-34/85 needs slight nerf because it one of the most cost efficient main battle tanks.

It needs to be balanced within the soviet roster to be picked over other soviet units. Assuming that core unit is balanced already against its opposition through other mechanics.

If okw and Ostheer both had a doctrinal Panther with 4 levels of vet you can't cost them the same because "they don't fight panthers" as the factions are designed with a certain cost effeciency in mind and the doctrinal unit has to match up with the factions established cost effeciency.
A 4 vet Panther would need to be cheaper for OKW and more expensive for Ostheer despite being the exact same unit-the only difference being the established expectations in the faction.

Such is also so for soviet doctrinal tanks.

The t34 is cost effective, but this is offset elsewhere in the factional design.
The 85 is a great tank, especially compared to the 76mm t34 BUT compared to the stock t34 you sre paying nearly 50% more and THAT is reflected in its performance. Otherwise the Ostheer /okw overlap units would HAVE to be cheaper than the OKW ones due to the lesser scaling if we don't take the surrounding faction into account.
The context of the faction and the establishmented balance therein matters.

Compared to the unit its expected to replace in the soviet faction I'm not certain the new Sherman will be worth its price point with nerfed vet.

Nope that is incorrect. One can choose out of 22 commanders.

I will repeat my exact sentence just for you. It was: "So you have to choose to get one of them." What is wrong about my sentence? I didn't say: "So you have to choose between one of them". That is a whole different meaning, my sentence didn't lock out other commander decisions as you tried to tell me. Objecting just to object only leads away from the core of the discussion.

Yes but one choose a commander with five abilities, one does not choose between T-34/85 and 76mm

You by yourself started a discussion about selling points of commanders at another thread. 76mm is clearly the selling point in both doctrines (AEF and Soviet) since both of them lack a lot of other things like an offmap. T34/85 is a selling point at Soviet Commanders too.

Once one chooses a commander one has to choose between building a stock unit or a doctrinal unit. So one does choose between T-34/76 and 76mm or Vanillas sherman and 76mm if playing USF.

You just can't compare T34/76 to 76mm Sherman or T34/85. Costing 35 to 40 fuel less, coming out way earlier and sucking vs medium tanks without support. 76mm Sherman and T34/85 are comparable on the other side.

In live 76mm Sherman is very effective tank with very fast firing Gun with ROF at vet 3 of 3.26 and can even fire faster with radio net.

Yes it is, that is the selling point of the two commanders (AEF + Soviet)in live version. No lategame abilities just a strong midgame.

The unit does deserve a nerf either on base stat or on vet bonuses.

I do think players will rate this differently. If nerfs to Mechanized remain unchanged (Dozer blade removal, 76mm RoF + combined arms nerf) I'll bet their 1vs1 loadout will drop to medicore at best while still staying abyssal at any other game mode. Its just a prediction. But looking at the actual loadout picking rates this commander doesn't deserve such a harsh nerf.

It needs to be balanced within the soviet roster to be picked over other soviet units. Assuming that core unit is balanced already against its opposition through other mechanics.
....

Then it simply need to become completely different from the USF one since it can not be balanced across to different factions...

But no matter how one to look at it 76mm Sherman is great tank.

Again 76mm is a very good tank I would take it over PzIV J any day.

The same circular argument was used between with KV-1 and T-34/85 finnaly fortunately the mod team decided to nerf the KV-1 instead of buffing the T-34/85 and continuing this vicious circle.

The question one has to ask is not why do I would one pick the T-34/85 over the 76mm or the KV-1 that is Commander meta problem. In the end people will pick one or the other.

The question to ask is the 76mm OP compared to what it is facing and that balance issue not a commander meta issue.

Reduce Partisan reinforcement cost plz,26mp too high，same as Consript and reduce 2mp after T3 unlock passive ability
Also I think reduce reinforcement cost for Soviet mainline infantry and weapon squad should be passive not about single squad upgrade，7 men Consript maybe could replace by single DP LMG,and Assault Package could give Penal some upgrade,also assault package upgrade give some buff like RA
And maybe other ability replace T34/85 RAM？130 fuel unit to suicide attack too.....stupid

Reduce Partisan reinforcement cost plz,26mp too high

+1 to that.
One of the reasons why partisans are such a bad choice is how they hog mp with horrible survivability and bleed.

if panzerwerfer gets pinning.. why cant katusha get pinning atleast on first barrage becus only the first barrage is even useful. the next 3 are usually ran from. if its suposed to stop capturing points it still sucks becuz panzerwerfer is squad kill most of time once shells hit floor. atguns and mgs cant even get away in time. katy on atguns u have to hope first barrage does miracles otherwise they run away..
also b4 howitzer shells should also pinn troops that are close to aoe...

another thing i forgot to add in last post was katusga come in a angle where i gets blocked by buildings and other objects while panzerwerfers most of the time avoids the objects

I really do like about 90% of the soviet changes, many of them bringing diversity and new gameplay options. There was a lot of work put into that will be great fun to play. Thanks for that!

One thing I want to remark about the last patch: I do think that the 0,75 seconds reload nerf on 76mm Sherman hits Lend Lease too hard, since the Sherman is the main selling point. There was so much work put into this Doctrine that I like to see it work out. But 76mm has to compete directly with T34/85 commander choices and after this last nerf I do think T34/85 comes out on top always.

T34/85 versus standard shells of 76mm Sherman with upgraded 50.cal:
T34/85 has slightly better frontal AI vs infantry with target size 1 already and way better AI vs infantry with lower target size or versus infantry that are not in front of all the MGs. The reason for that is the way better AOE of the main gun. Especially in late game T34/85 is a bigger thread to vetted infantry.

T34/85 standard shell has better penetration

With 800 hp T34/85 can take one hit more (which is often the difference between survival and destruction) and has slightly less target size


Yeah, I do know it is 5 fuel and 2 population more (and 60 MU less), but that should be always worth it. I don’t think the 6 seconds shell switch, smoke pods or 25% better moving acc make up for the raw allround power and survivability of T34/85. Choosing 76mm was always about highspeed RoF. Now it gets “standardized” without a compensation at AoE for example.
Keep in mind both 76mm doctrines (AEF and Soviet) come without doctrinal indirect fire or offmap, so their power is centered mainly around the 76mm.

completely agree to the mc4 part. the ROF nerf makes the sherman and lend lease in general a much less attractive choice compared to t-34/85 or kv-1 doctrines. i understand it was slightly overperforming in mechanized, but i wish something else would be considered (e.g. price increase) to reduce the overall effectiveness of the 76mm instead.

Agree about the mc4, the t34 85 is a better choice and available in better commanders (not saying lend lease is bad). The standard Sherman's ap round has really good pen (close pen equals the 76mms), hvap isn't worth alone for the tank it's better to get a td and a cheap t34 or Sherman that can fill both Ai at roles just fine.

Also think the is2 vet should be abit Lower (possibly around the kv2s?). It's still quite higher than the others by almost 500xp.

1. Soviets needs forward HQ. I refuse to take infantry due to the fact that infantry has to run too long ways to get to the front each time, this is especially the case on big maps. Until this hasnt been fixed Im gonna stick to tank commanders.
2. Regarding the Katyusha, it shoots too inaccurate. U have to babysit it by bringing it in Tank range to even do proper damage while risking to lose it to some rushing tank.
3. MP bleed is way too high for soviet elite infantry.
4. KV8 is underperforming. Its not good anti infantry tank. Any medium tank does the job better. I cant understand how the devs fail to grasp this. If u make a pure anti infantry tank u would expect it to perform better.
5. Shocks still have no auto-approach close combat ability. U have to babysit them.
6. SU85, ZIS gun nerf needs to be reversed. Most retarded nerfs. Zis barrage is useless I never use it again. SU sight ability useless, i never use it again.
7. Maxim was nerfed?!? Revert. It's surpression is terrible right now as well as its setting up time,
8. Conscripts is still the worst unit in the game with no option to ugprade for SVT or ppsh. 7 man upgrade increase pop size of it even more. Thats not even an upgrade!!!
9. Sniper is still useless with even less sight range.
10. T34/37 T4!??!? Then why does this tank even exist? In Late game any axis tank beats this tank.
11. T34/85 still doctrinal while Panther isnt~!??!?
12. Mortars need baby sitting with their barrage ability??? The game is way too control intensive. THer eis barely any strategic aspect it. Its just control every little thing. That old mechanics belongs to the late 90s. Sad sad sad.

The last thing soviet needs is a forward retreat.... Hell the game would benifit greatly from the removal of all FRPs and not adding more...

Why Assault guards are now 340??? WTF.
And what dose a useless ability Armoured Vehicle Detection doing in sov shock army now??

Why Assault guards are now 340??? WTF.
And what dose a useless ability Armoured Vehicle Detection doing in sov shock army now??

Vehicle detection has been buffed.
It replaced recon so that the commander will not have the combination of strong off map and recon.

and yes I agreee partisans are a joke. The partisan commander has nothing good against infantry, once obersoldaten come, its over. Partisans are too weak! THey should be super ppowerful and feared. Thats the whole point of hte partisan commander
Also radio intercept needs to go. Annoying and unnecessary

Vehicle detection has been buffed.
It replaced recon so that the commander will not have the combination of strong off map and recon.

But why is it in Soviet shock army though???

But why is it in Soviet shock army though???

Maybe because the commander already combines good abilities like the T-34/85 (top main battle tank) /Shock troops (top doctrinal infatry)/Strong off map (very cost efficient thought a bit inconstant)/120mm mortar so the remaining ability should be less potent else it would run the risk of overshadowing other T-34/85 commander reducing the number of meta commanders.

The aim of commander patch should not be to create the commander with best abilities but to bring as many commander as possible to similar power levels.