Commander Update Beta 2021 - Soviet Feedback
14 May 2021, 16:46 PM
#621
Posts: 5279
Holy fuck... Only on these forums could there be a situation where literally every single stock squad of infantry you build can repair tanks and people would be like "yea but the tank should heal itself"
#stalinwept
14 May 2021, 18:17 PM
#622
Posts: 919
Holy fuck... Only on these forums could there be a situation where literally every single stock squad of infantry you build can repair tanks and people would be like "yea but the tank should heal itself"
Just tell me what is better:
A) Every stock infantry unit can repair tanks at the cost of one commander ability and the unit beeing busy for repair time (of course).
B) Tanks have crews that can disembark to repair tank by itself (and give you some additional advantages).
It came up because M4C is a directly import of USF faction and just to be fair UKF Lend Lease M10 + M5 got same repair treatment without having to spend a precious commander ability for it...
14 May 2021, 19:06 PM
#623
Posts: 1563
i'd still think vehicle crew repairs would be nice to have for the M4C as it doesn't bind any of your forces (except the tank itself maybe) for the time it takes to heal up your tank.
Think of it this way Vehicle crew repairs would bind your tanks but Con repair kit doesn't(not saying it's ideal but the glass is half full in a way).
14 May 2021, 21:52 PM
#624
Posts: 5279
Just tell me what is better:
A) Every stock infantry unit can repair tanks at the cost of one commander ability and the unit beeing busy for repair time (of course).
B) Tanks have crews that can disembark to repair tank by itself (and give you some additional advantages).
It came up because M4C is a directly import of USF faction and just to be fair UKF Lend Lease M10 + M5 got same repair treatment without having to spend a precious commander ability for it...
Does the ost commander with the p4 with skirts get 5 levels of vet? No it doesn't because that's a faction trait. As is usf crews.
Whats more do m4c crews help your T70? Your quad? Your su85? Your team mates shit? There is a hell of a lot of versatility in having ALL your stock infantry be able to repair. Far more than a single tank you may or may not even build being able to fix itself.
Con repair in itself is a fantastic ability and far from a lost slot. It's one of the least niche abilities in the game since you will always have infantry and always (at least plan to) have vehicles that need repairs. The versatility is nearly as unparalleled as its saturation. It's a great ability that isn't tied to a meh tank.
#stalinwept
14 May 2021, 23:39 PM
#625
Posts: 919
Does the ost commander with the p4 with skirts get 5 levels of vet? No it doesn't because that's a faction trait. As is usf crews.
I don't think you really can compare something that you get at Vet4 or Vet5 with something you get directly out of the box and has an ongoing big game impact like vehicle crews. But of course it is a faction trait and it would be just plain dumb to give vehicle crews to Soviets. All USF tanks have the ability to get fast back into action without spending expensive abilities for it. That is factored in at their cost and performance. If you take such a tank and remove such a basic feature of it to plant it into another faction at the same cost you just can't expect to get the same performance out of it.
Land Lease Tactics is at direct competition with Shock Army and Guard Motor Coordination Tactics in your commander layout, since all three of them give you elite infantry and premium medium tank plus three other useful abilities. M4C just can't stand up to T34/85, the last nerf which was aimed at USF Mechanized just made it worse. Don't get me wrong, M4C doens't have to be such a powerhouse as T34/85 but it needs soemthing to set it apart. Fast repair on its own, more speed, versatility... whatever... something...
Whats more do m4c crews help your T70? Your quad? Your su85? Your team mates shit? There is a hell of a lot of versatility in having ALL your stock infantry be able to repair. Far more than a single tank you may or may not even build being able to fix itself.
Con repair in itself is a fantastic ability and far from a lost slot. It's one of the least niche abilities in the game since you will always have infantry and always (at least plan to) have vehicles that need repairs. The versatility is nearly as unparalleled as its saturation. It's a great ability that isn't tied to a meh tank.
You are absolutely right about this. Especially with the additon of the penals this ability got quite good. Even if MC4 would have a own repair ability it wouldn't be a wasted slot and I never said that. I only wanted to show alternatives that could work out too and be thematical on top (like M3 repair truck that would help your teammates and your other vehicles/tanks a lot). I'm just afraid of Land Lease getting the short end of the stick because of a M4C that just turns out to be medicore as a central piece of this commander.
14 May 2021, 23:53 PM
#626
Posts: 112
t34/85 are way too inaccurate. It is NOT fine for it's price. Any bad soviet will go for t34s instead of SU85 and lose his game. When ever I lose a team game i know why it is. ANd i have to SHOUT at my team mate telling him to stop making fricking t34s.
15 May 2021, 00:22 AM
#627
Posts: 133
t34/85 are way too inaccurate. It is NOT fine for it's price. Any bad soviet will go for t34s instead of SU85 and lose his game. When ever I lose a team game i know why it is. ANd i have to SHOUT at my team mate telling him to stop making fricking t34s.
t-34-85 is totally fine. What are you on about? It's a excellent premium medium tank.
15 May 2021, 00:48 AM
#628
Posts: 919
t34/85 are way too inaccurate. It is NOT fine for it's price. Any bad soviet will go for t34s instead of SU85 and lose his game. When ever I lose a team game i know why it is. ANd i have to SHOUT at my team mate telling him to stop making fricking t34s.
Did you considered combined arms?
T34/85 for murdering infantry and supporting at AT while eating the damage (800hp), Su-85 for sniping Tanks from the back. Maybe it is just me but that sounds like a strong combo, just don't shoot on the move.
15 May 2021, 05:41 AM
#629
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
t34/85 are way too inaccurate. It is NOT fine for it's price. Any bad soviet will go for t34s instead of SU85 and lose his game. When ever I lose a team game i know why it is. ANd i have to SHOUT at my team mate telling him to stop making fricking t34s.
yeah... no.
the t-34/85 is fine. if there's anything that needs to strike more accurately it's apparently coh2.org's ban hammer.
||| ScatterThis! - Tank AI calculation made easy ||| CoH2 Pen Calc - Tank vs tank... who wins against who and by what margin? |||
15 May 2021, 07:16 AM
#630
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
Holy fuck... Only on these forums could there be a situation where literally every single stock squad of infantry you build can repair tanks and people would be like "yea but the tank should heal itself"
thing is, while self repair and conscript repair package both have in common that you use it to heal up your tanks, they're different enough to justify coexisting in the same commander. they both do the same thing essentially, but with different pros and cons associated - they are similar but not redundant. the same applies for example to the sherman's smoke pods and offmap smoke; both block vision but noone would argue that the offmap has no use just because you have it on the tank already.
crew repairs give you the advantage to repair your tank anywhere and anytime you want without binding an engineer (or, in case of conscript repair package, a mainline) squad to the task.
you pay for the added flexibility with munitions and the risk of getting caught with your pants down during repair as you can't stop it once activated and it keeps your tank rooted.
the mainline repair package adds a ton of versatility as you can, like you said, use basically any of your units to repair for free. you can also repair under fire and retaliate as your tank won't be locked in place (though you'd only really want to risk that against threats that can't harm your repairing squad as well, like AT guns or TDs).
downside is that your mainline won't contribute to fighting/capping elsewhere on the map for the duration, which can be quite long since the repair speed is not that great.
on top of that the USF M4C has the ability to self repair by jumping out and using the tank crew, so it wouldn't stretch imagination too far to have the Soviet version able to do the same via a vehicle crew repair ability.
||| ScatterThis! - Tank AI calculation made easy ||| CoH2 Pen Calc - Tank vs tank... who wins against who and by what margin? |||
15 May 2021, 14:04 PM
#631
Posts: 5279
#stalinwept
16 May 2021, 07:35 AM
#632
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
[...]
i get that you're pretty fond of the conscript repair package, which is fine. still that doesn't mean the M4C couldn't benefit from a crew repair ability as an alternative to field repairs by whatever unit may be close by, at least in my opinion. it wouldn't take away anything from the status quo but add another option that is further consistent with one of the traits the USF M4C has - that's all i've been trying to say. there sure are other options to make the revamped 76mm more attractive compared to other doctrinal alternatives that may work out even better, so let's just agree to disagree here.
EDIT: just to be 100% clear, i'm not talking about vehicle crews like USF has but rather the self-repair ability (e.g. that of the UC)
||| ScatterThis! - Tank AI calculation made easy ||| CoH2 Pen Calc - Tank vs tank... who wins against who and by what margin? |||
16 May 2021, 10:37 AM
#633
Posts: 772
IMO USF crew is the best, because during repairs only 1 unit is of the battlefield. Engineer could perform scouting, minesweeping, capping, laying mines or obviously repairing, cons can build sandbags, cap, fight etc or repair (with doctrinal ability), with crew you don't have to do all this. Crew also helps with micro. You don't have to wait for engi or anyone to repair the armor.
Perhaps reducing actual hitpoints and adding damage reduction, like it was with KV-1, may somewhat level out M4C with 76mm, or add capping ability that t34s have.
Perhaps reducing actual hitpoints and adding damage reduction, like it was with KV-1, may somewhat level out M4C with 76mm, or add capping ability that t34s have.
16 May 2021, 12:25 PM
#634
Posts: 919
The 85 and m4c fill different roles though, admittedly the m4c role is unneeded AND its bad at it, but there lies the issue, not in comparison. soviet have 2 6 range TDs and a full power AT gun. they dont need an AT tank, especially not one that is squishy and less versatile than the t-34/76. if you want swarms of tanks then the t34 fills that role better than any tank, if you want reliability then you have TDs. the best tank to fill the slot would probably be the 105 sherman as it ISNT competing with the stock roster
Yeah, thats true. SU-85 is a reliable and pretty cheap nondoc TD at 60 range, so T34/76, T34/85 and KV-1 are good additions because they have a strong AI performance. Thats the part the SU-85 is missing completely. While T34/76 has a good HP to cost ratio the other two can take a beating.
Main problems of M4C: Its worse at AI and worse at shielding SU-85 (soaking up damage).
I always said M4C standard shells need AOE damage profile of Cromwell. The shell switch alone (6 seconds) is already a big disadvantage at fighting different targets, so this surely would not be op.
In addition I would vote for a self repair ability.
16 May 2021, 13:26 PM
#635
Posts: 163
Soviet is fine, there is a reason they are the most picked allied faction, I mean buffing them again with other factions "gimmick" will be like there's no reason to pick brits and USF. Conscripts can hold their own early game, conscripts should lose to grens/volks in midgame when they got their upgrades but the mighty T70 carry their asses and we all know Soviet lategame. The zis gun also was the least affected of the received accuracy nerfs as they had 6 man with shield, also easier to gain veterancy with the barrage and zis do its job well as an atgun. Keep in mind there's also needs to be a disadvantage to a unit as it will make the other units obsolete and just be meta/spammed. Imagine a panther that isn't blind to infantry...
16 May 2021, 14:09 PM
#636
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Yeah, thats true. SU-85 is a reliable and pretty cheap nondoc TD at 60 range, so T34/76, T34/85 and KV-1 are good additions because they have a strong AI performance. Thats the part the SU-85 is missing completely. While T34/76 has a good HP to cost ratio the other two can take a beating.
Main problems of M4C: Its worse at AI and worse at shielding SU-85 (soaking up damage).
I always said M4C standard shells need AOE damage profile of Cromwell. The shell switch alone (6 seconds) is already a big disadvantage at fighting different targets, so this surely would not be op.
In addition I would vote for a self repair ability.
Can we pls drop the shell switch "big disadvantage" argument? M4C does not have to switch shell to fight different target. Its AP rounds is both good at AT and AI.
The unit simply has the option to use specially AT at rounds but that is an option and not a disadvantage.
(Can we also pls give a similar "disadvantage" to Ostheer's PzIV J)
16 May 2021, 18:06 PM
#637
Posts: 772
M4C does not have to switch shell to fight different target. Its AP rounds is both good at AT and AI.
No, it does. Check it yourself
16 May 2021, 18:23 PM
#639
Posts: 772
M4C AP:
Accuracy (near/mid/far) - 0.05/0.0375/0.25.
Perpetration (near/mid/far) - 140/130/120.
Reload duration - 4.1 / 4.5 (live) 4.85 / 5.25 (patch)
HVAP:
Accuracy (near/mid/far) - 0.06/0.0425/0.035.
Perpetration (near/mid/far) - 220/180/165.
Reload duration - 6.1
Pretty obvious that you don't want to use AP shells vs targets heavier then Ostwind.
Accuracy (near/mid/far) - 0.05/0.0375/0.25.
Perpetration (near/mid/far) - 140/130/120.
Reload duration - 4.1 / 4.5 (live) 4.85 / 5.25 (patch)
HVAP:
Accuracy (near/mid/far) - 0.06/0.0425/0.035.
Perpetration (near/mid/far) - 220/180/165.
Reload duration - 6.1
Pretty obvious that you don't want to use AP shells vs targets heavier then Ostwind.
16 May 2021, 19:04 PM
#640
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
M4C AP:
Accuracy (near/mid/far) - 0.05/0.0375/0.25.
Perpetration (near/mid/far) - 140/130/120.
Reload duration - 4.1 / 4.5 (live) 4.85 / 5.25 (patch)
HVAP:
Accuracy (near/mid/far) - 0.06/0.0425/0.035.
Perpetration (near/mid/far) - 220/180/165.
Reload duration - 6.1
Pretty obvious that you don't want to use AP shells vs targets heavier then Ostwind.
Now try comparing the M4C AP rounds with Sherman 75mm AP rounds.
Unless you also want to claim that 75mm can only fight Ostwinds.
Being able to choose from AP and HAVP rounds is an option for the 76mm Sherman the same way that being able to choose from HE is an option for the 75mm Sherman. It is no away disadvantage.
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